The Illusion of Choice

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Nagisawa wrote:

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Azidonis wrote:

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Nagisawa wrote:

As someone stuck on Piety on Normal in Lunaris with a two handed/life Sweep/Cleave/Leap Slam build? Anyone who says there's plenty of variety has not played anything 'true melee'.

Sounds like you just threw some gems in your gear and called it a 'build'.

I'm stuck with what the game gives me. I've stacked ever life node I could find, but I also, stupidly, decided to go for every two handed damage adder node on the way. And I can tell you, the damage nodes are useless. In fact, I'd have been better served by going pure resistance and health, whether that's bonus or regen.

This means my build is not viable. I have NO CHOICE but to start over and do it all over again, because I thought that investing in 50% offence and defence would be viable. Moment I hit Act 3, it wasn't.

Illusion of Choice.

Many people seem to be running into this. Okay, so you took a 6% damage node... but you do 200 damage. So you spent a node to increase your damage by... 12.

Even at higher levels, say you do 2,000 damage. That same 6% damage node increases your damage by... 120.

It's not a lot, really. And that's where the lack of build diversity shows. Add to that the fact that the numbers apparently aren't additive (?), meaning if you get 2 nodes of 6% damage, you aren't really getting 12% damage. Someone feel free to correct me on this.

I do recall somewhere reading that any damage node under 8% is not worth taking. That lowers your effective build choices by a bit, if you plan on making it to Merciless.

This doesn't mean that you have the illusion of choice, though. You have many choices, and you can choose to build a character that will mathematically function in the highest zones, or mathematically leave you banging your head on normal Piety.

(btw, when I first did Piety on normal with my first character, which was melee, I was able to max lightning and cold resists. Then, I kept a portal up in her room, and ran around killing fire portals, and fighting her when not killing fire portals. Or, you could just run like hell when she gets the fire buff, and do your best to kill some cold portals when you can. These are just two of many strategies that I know work.)

Just a note, but additive means, well, you add it. That's great for resistances.
However, for most other things you want multiplicative because then 2 6% nodes give you a 1.06*1.06 = 1.1236 = |1.12 + 0.0036| > |1.12| = 1.12 bonus.

So, in fact, resistances and other forms of standard DR would be more balanced to stack (with no hardcap given) if they were multiplicative. THen, well, 50% dps reduction from 0 gives you 50%. But the next 50% only gives you 75% total reduction, etc.

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zanotam wrote:

Just a note, but additive means, well, you add it. That's great for resistances.
However, for most other things you want multiplicative because then 2 6% nodes give you a 1.06*1.06 = 1.1236 = |1.12 + 0.0036| > |1.12| = 1.12 bonus.

So, in fact, resistances and other forms of standard DR would be more balanced to stack (with no hardcap given) if they were multiplicative. THen, well, 50% dps reduction from 0 gives you 50%. But the next 50% only gives you 75% total reduction, etc.

Actually they'd be far less balanced to stack. Right now, stacking life nodes is an OP strategy; make it multiplicative instead of additive, and it's even more OP. The "increased" additive system helps discourage players from stacking one stat too highly, instead encouraging a more varied build. Of course, it's not doing enough at the moment, because life nodes are just that good.

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Nagisawa wrote:

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Azidonis wrote:

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Nagisawa wrote:

As someone stuck on Piety on Normal in Lunaris with a two handed/life Sweep/Cleave/Leap Slam build? Anyone who says there's plenty of variety has not played anything 'true melee'.

Sounds like you just threw some gems in your gear and called it a 'build'.

I'm stuck with what the game gives me. I've stacked ever life node I could find, but I also, stupidly, decided to go for every two handed damage adder node on the way. And I can tell you, the damage nodes are useless. In fact, I'd have been better served by going pure resistance and health, whether that's bonus or regen.

This means my build is not viable. I have NO CHOICE but to start over and do it all over again, because I thought that investing in 50% offence and defence would be viable. Moment I hit Act 3, it wasn't.

Illusion of Choice.

So how do you explain that there are people that play true melee builds and have cleared Merciless in Hardcore with them? Why do people always expect that their builds are good and don't even consider that it's actually their own fault and not the games fault?

http://www.twitch.tv/devmoon/b/371250995?t=3h47m

While one could argue that melee is weaker than ranged it doesn't mean that melee isn't viable. If you know your stuff you can successfully play melee in this game. This has been proven by people who actually do play melee (watch the video above). Also, it's a lie that people invest 100% in defensive stats. That is not true for any build that I know of. It's not even 50% most of the time or 50% at most, but people just seem to ignore all the none life nodes when looking at a build and call life node stacking.

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thepmrc wrote:

There is no illusion of choice. There are choices. Some choices are superior to others, however the choice remains in the hands of the player. This is no illusion.

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I was going to post but this sums up what I was going to say.

I agree in the fact there is choices, there is various build that are working.. But like some are saying I think there is just a little too much defensive nodes to take.

A build without any attack nodes (or juste some) should deal almost no damage and not be viable in High level. A build with only attack nodes is alreayd not viable.

I have a friend playing a ranger elem bow build, he almost didn't take any attack nodes, only HP and armor/evasion and many strength.. The way he deel good damage is just because he have a good Lyoneye's Glare unique Bow...

A little balance ajustment would be good to equilibrate a little more attack and defense, for example 60% defensive 40% offensive in a build.

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iamstryker wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

There is no illusion of choice. There are choices. Some choices are superior to others, however the choice remains in the hands of the player. This is no illusion.

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I was going to post but this sums up what I was going to say.

Do you even understand what the phrase "illusion of choice" means? When the answer is obvious, there is no choice. Choices only exist between options that are the same in value.

Improving your dps by choosing between +10dps and +5dps is not a choice. Choosing between +5dps and another +5dps is a choice.

Improving your HP by choosing between +10HP and +5HP is not a choice. Choosing between +5HP and another +5HP is a choice.

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c2games wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

There is no illusion of choice. There are choices. Some choices are superior to others, however the choice remains in the hands of the player. This is no illusion.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I was going to post but this sums up what I was going to say.

Do you even understand what the phrase "illusion of choice" means? When the answer is obvious, there is no choice. Choices only exist between options that are the same in value.

Improving your dps by choosing between +10dps and +5dps is not a choice. Choosing between +5dps and another +5dps is a choice.

Improving your HP by choosing between +10HP and +5HP is not a choice. Choosing between +5HP and another +5HP is a choice.

1) If your looking for a game that is perfectly balanced and every choice is equally as good as the other your going to be very disappointed.

2) If your going to give examples then use examples from the tree and not made up ones. There's more than one way to make a great and effective build. For example a character that does less DPS but also freezes every enemy he hits. Who has the better build?

There's plenty of options and thats no illusion.

You claim "There is no illusion of choice". I said there is. I further demonstrate it by showing how there is no real choice between superior and inferior options.

You want a poe example?
Choosing between HP, armor, ES, and eva is not a choice.
Choosing between offense and defense is not a choice.

"Illusion of choice" is a big problem for a game that advertises having a lot of choices. Not saying that is the only selling point, but it is still a selling point.

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c2games wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

There is no illusion of choice. There are choices. Some choices are superior to others, however the choice remains in the hands of the player. This is no illusion.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I was going to post but this sums up what I was going to say.

Do you even understand what the phrase "illusion of choice" means? When the answer is obvious, there is no choice. Choices only exist between options that are the same in value.

Improving your dps by choosing between +10dps and +5dps is not a choice. Choosing between +5dps and another +5dps is a choice.

Improving your HP by choosing between +10HP and +5HP is not a choice. Choosing between +5HP and another +5HP is a choice.

Your choice is not 10dps vs 5dps. Your choice is 10dps vs 20hp vs 50armor vs lots of other stuff.

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You want a poe example?
Choosing between HP, armor, ES, and eva is not a choice.
Choosing between offense and defense is not a choice.

I don't understand what you're trying to say at all. Why would that not be a choice?