the damage of player Ignites, Poisons, and Bleeding has been greatly increased

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Poison deals 20% of the applicable (usually physical + chaos) base and added damage of the skill, per second, for 2 seconds base duration.

Big question: what exactly is that "added damage" ?

Assume the following example: I have a bow with 10-20 damage (including all modifiers on the bow itself). The skill uses 50% base damage for it's damage calculations, I do have a +100% bow damage total, the skill is supported by +50% more physical damage, and I do have a +200% increased damage with ailments/poison.

What is the base damage?
What is the added damage in this case?
What is the total value that is used as basis for the calculation of poison damage?
What is the final poison damage per second?

I also noticed that the character display is not helping in figuring out these numbers. The total main-hand damage for my character is shown as 145 - 351 physical damage, the calculated poison damage is 32.1 - 77.8. That is 20% of my MH damage increased by 9%, however I currently have 90% more poison damage skilled. And there is no mention of my 92% increased damage with ailments while wielding a bow either.

Furthermore if that damage would be correct, then skilling poison damage would be a major waste of points, as currently those numbers give me a 5% dps increase for 4 points spent.

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What91x wrote:

Will crits produce bigger bleed/poison/ignites? That's the only thing I still don't understand when people say scaling off of base damage.

Yes, unless you allocate a node like Elemental Overload (or other thing that removes any critical strike multiplier) all critical hits will also yield stronger ailments.

The difference is that your critical multiplier for ailments will be only 150%, as if you'd allocated no nodes, and had no items boosting it.

Perfect Agony is NOT required to receive that 150% multiplier, it's merely required to go above it. You can observe this by opening your character sheet, and noticing you now have two crit multis listed.

The whole "Base damage" part was technically unrelated, and more about the ACTUAL removal of double-dipping. I can go into it in a bit more detail, but in short: ailments are now separated from the hit at the end of the "Damage conversion" stage, and BEFORE any increase/more is applied to the hit; those are run in parallel, treating your DoT and hit as two different damages independent of each other at that point.

(As a quick refresher, the order of damage calculation steps is: Sum up all flat damage -> convert damage types -> Separate DoTs from hits -> sum and apply relevant "increased/decreased" -> apply each "More/less" individually -> Flatten damage layers -> Send to the target monster)

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raics wrote:

Nope, they have nothing to do with how much damage your hit did anymore. Unless you use perfect agony but even that will not care if it was 1 damage or 10k, it will just apply your crit multi to DoT if you did a crit.

This is actually inaccurate; as far as at least all wording goes, crits *DO* do more damage with ailments, and this never stopped. You can observe this by opening your character sheet on any character that doesn't have a node like Elemental Overload (which eliminates any crit multiplier) allocated.

The default crit multi for ailments is the same 150% as it is for hits. IT's just now SEPARATE... And the part that's tripping people up is nothing modifies it by default.

Perfect Agony isn't needed to get crit ailments, it's needed to boost that 150%. Again, you can observe this with any crit character, opening your sheet, to see that your own crit multi for hits will be well over 150% (because you invested in it) while for ailments it's still 150%.

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ACGIFT wrote:

This is actually inaccurate; as far as at least all wording goes, crits *DO* do more damage with ailments, and this never stopped.

Could be, I trust the character screen and tooltip about as much as I do CNN, but the wording on the keystone doesn't say much to clarify the situation.

The eventual misunderstanding probably stems from devs saying in the manifesto that your 'crit multiplier will not affect DoT', they said another stat will replace it but I can't recall if they specified how high it is so we just assumed it's 100% until you start adding to it with PA.

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raics wrote:

The eventual misunderstanding probably stems from devs saying in the manifesto that your 'crit multiplier will not affect DoT', they said another stat will replace it but I can't recall if they specified how high it is so we just assumed it's 100% until you start adding to it with PA.

The exact wording from the manifesto was as follows:

"

Your Critical Damage Multiplier will now not influence Poison, Bleeding and Ignite damage, as a result of these ailments no longer being based on the final damage of your hit. Instead, players and monsters now have a property called Damage Multiplier for Ailments from Critical Strikes, which boosts the damage of Ignite, Poison and Bleed caused by critical strikes.

In short, we have two crit multipliers. I guess most players got confused, only partly understood that, and thought it meant that "crits had no effect AT ALL on ailments."

As we can see in 3.0.0, the changes are exactly as they forecast.

Granted, I don't think such a change was strictly necessary, since again, the removal of double-dipping would've been fine enough, as your multiplier never double-dipped before.

Yeah, that's the one, would have helped a bunch if they just said how high that crit-DoT multiplier is, if they went 'same as crit multi' that might have been misunderstood too. Though maybe they didn't know for sure yet.

^Character sheet also doesn't portray poison duration and modifiers to it btw.

Unlike freeze/shock/ignite duration increases being shown.

Linking unbound ailment currently only shows an increase to "elemental" ailment effects and not poison/bleed ailment effects and it's hard to figure out if they actually gain a benefit from it since the base duration of poison is so small.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Mark_GGG wrote:

...

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation, that clarifies a lot of questions I (and others) had.

If I understand your explanation correctly, then to figure out my poison dps I need to calculate 20% of the combined total physical and chaos damage of the skill used - without any passive skill based modifiers - and then apply poison/ailment modifiers to that. So essentially the +poison/ailment damage replaces the +weapon damage modifiers in that calculation.

From my experiences running a bleed Gladiator build, it's pretty rippy now.
Had little issue tear arsing through everything, even when I was under equipped. Primarily used Sunder one handed/duel wielding. Most things died in one volley, if not the bleed would almost certainly get them.

Had a little more trouble with bosses, but not much. If they moved, kitting was easy.
Kitava did take more effort, so I'm unclear how effective bleed was on him. But even under geared I didn't have that much difficultly.

So yeah, bleed is good, maybe a little too good.

After checking the poison dps calculation with Path of Building and found it to be correct, I sadly have to realize that high poison dps builds are currently close to impossible. A focused poison build with good uniques will end up somewhere around 5k-10k poison dps (with a combined skill bonus of 670% more poison damage), depending on the skill gem chosen. In comparison: a single zombie in my summoner build does about the same damage, but I got 9 of them. And skeletons and raging spirits.

If you however would invest those points into weapon damage instead, you easily surpass those 5k-10k dps as it scales much better. So in conclusion it is nice if you get poison for free with some weapon skills, however investing in poison at the current state of the game is a waste of points.