Let's discuss the life vs ES manifesto (keep it civil guys, we are just nerds)

In true GGG fashion, to fix the problem they nerfed the fack outta ES. Worse, they balanced it to levels most people will never attain. 25K ES? Maybe if you have 10 mirrors worth of gear. 9K Life? Where? Even with nearly every life node AND Belly you can't get that. So they are balancing around Kaom's?

Just clueless changes that show they a) have still no clue how design a game and b) are completely out of touch with what they have made, I feel like Rory tunes into Ziz and Mathil's stream, takes some notes and then goes back with a mindset to make change.

Typical ES values are more like 10-12K with a few dozen ex behind it. If they see a build that can reach 25K and still generate damage required for all end game, they should be reviewing their ridiculous power creep.

I'm all in favor of balance and clipping ES a tad, but buffing Life takes precedent and they didn't mention buffing IT ALL. And we all know they won't. They'll just nerf everything else into the ground and then subsequently buff their asinine one-shot mechanics. Because that brings every gamer so much fun. Oops I just died. What killed you!? I dunno, I blinked.

This game is just totally off the rails. I was hoping for 3 to actually bring about changes for the overall health of the game but ya no. So rip the last decent ARPG.

Also, who picks VP for Life builds? Lol. When your head balance guy is so out to lunch...

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_Tiem wrote:

This game is just totally off the rails. I was hoping for 3 to actually brung about changes for the overall health of the game but ya no. So rip the last decent ARPG.

Does this mean that you will no longer be playing the game? Will you be posting in the forums?

So they are nerfing all sources of instant leech for ES or just VP?

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Nephalim wrote:

So they are nerfing all sources of instant leech for ES or just VP?

I only saw info on VP in the manifesto. Atziri's Acuity price going back up??

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Nephalim wrote:

So they are nerfing all sources of instant leech for ES or just VP?

Just VP for now. But if they don't nerf items like Acuities, you know what ever ES character is going to build around.

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tweedledee111 wrote:

Some quick first thoughts after reading through the manifesto:

- The nerf to ES is severe, the buff to life is cautious. Imo in general that's the right direction in order to create an actual choice for the player.

Agreed.

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tweedledee111 wrote:

- The concrete numbers seem a tad bit high on the nerf side though. The current "typical" CI character has inbetween 10-15k ES (20k is very high, 25k is someone in mirrorgear playing Occultist or Trickster, certainly not the norm.) These builds will loose 20 - 30% flat ES, 20 - 40% global ES, and then get 10% less ES from speccing into CI. Hence the new "average" CI character will have inbetween 6 - 10k ES - wich is fine, as long as there is a reliable way to replenish this pool.

Imo this requires a siginficant change of the leechmechanics underlying CI. The leechcap for Ghostreaver must be derived from the amount of total ES, not from the amount of hypothetical total life a character would have without CI. Otherwise every non-ZO CI build will be absolutely unplayable, once VP is removed.

Isnt it derived from ES pool already? I've thought that's how ES leech worked for ages!
Oh, right, it probably happened after leech changes (when GGG made it stack). Fix is needed indeed.

And i'd rather seen useless armour/evasion on gear buffed, than ES nerfed.

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tweedledee111 wrote:

- To remove VP for ES-characters only and leave it in effect for life users seems plain wrong. Once the hp-pool of the average CI character will not be a lot higher than the hp-pool of an average lifebased character, this will only create an unjustified advantage for life. Imo the best choice would be to remove the keystone alltogether and sprinkle % increased leechcap nodes across the tree, allowing for more or less dedicated leechbuilds without instant spongeleech.

- Great job on the buffed Hakucrafts, great job on the new affixes. I hope they indeed will be added to at least one other itemslot.

Agreed.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

We're paying the price for years of power creep. Just take it. Consider 3.0 a whole new game. Don't think of it as a simple patch with a few tweeks. We're really going to have to start fresh.

Wouldn't shock me at all if they had to wipe the servers and start us all over without any gear.

Why should anyone give a fuck about whatever shenanigans people get up to on standard league?

The game should be balanced around what is realistically feasable in temp leagues, and even SSF.

so all the standard ES body armours with their 900+ES will be legacy now and will get in price by like 10x times? how is this change fair at all for standard players tho? not like i care i dont play standard at all just wondering tho

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CaptainWARLORD wrote:

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tweedledee111 wrote:

- To remove VP for ES-characters only and leave it in effect for life users seems plain wrong. Once the hp-pool of the average CI character will not be a lot higher than the hp-pool of an average lifebased character, this will only create an unjustified advantage for life. Imo the best choice would be to remove the keystone alltogether and sprinkle % increased leechcap nodes across the tree, allowing for more or less dedicated leechbuilds without instant spongeleech.

Mhm.

Let's just simply ignore the fact that Int scales ES much better than STR scales Life.

Let's ignore the fact that ES has innate 50% chance to avoid Stun, even if you have only 1 ES left.

Let's ignore the fact that ES nodes have higher values.

Let's ignore the fact that ES items still have higher base values.

Let's ignore the fact that ES automatically recharges, completely negating the need for a Life flask (in comparison), whereas a VP Life build is fucked if he runs out of flask charges.

Let's ignore the options you have as an ES character, ranging from Life converted to ES to Low Life and CI.

Yes, let's ignore all that and then compare it to Life and VP. Yes, ES sucks ass. Needs a buff.

And lets ignore the fact that life instantly recharges with potions.

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CaptainWARLORD wrote:

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bhavv wrote:

And lets ignore the fact that life instantly recharges with potions.

With diminishing returns the higher your Life gets. I will accept your argument and let it stand as is.

EDIT: Just one thing. If we are being real here, who currently still uses Life flasks? It's mostly utility or unique flasks.

Profane Chemistry and Herbalism exist for a reason, as does the doedres flask that gives you 75% of your health back.

You can easily reach over 10k instant life regen with normal flasks, far more that you will ever have max HP.