Development Manifesto: Changes to the Labyrinth

Archwizard wrote:
Devonor wrote:
Nicksiren wrote:
Disappointing to hear. Repeating the lab 4 times is incredibly boring when you've already played 30+ characters considering it's forced content. This is a bad decision.

Yes, it really is a bad decision. The community is also on its way of becoming split in 2 ( feels like ). This also creates more hostile community towards each other ( it's already hostile and toxic enough imo by far ). Why not come up with a solution that both parts can live with and try to unite us ggg? Seriously !!!

I have stopped spending dollars on this game, I know I am not the only one lol. It's a reason for this. As long as ggg do stupid unnecessary decisions and slowly destroy this game I am not spending money, simple.
I have been hoping that ggg would grow to become a big company. Big as in one of the biggest game companies in the world, its great developers in ggg, what a shame. I believe this company could make many good games just like Blizzard for example. The lab, for example, could be an own game, it's a great concept if it was just that another game.

I think "the haters" are in majority, probably like 70/30 ish but realistically more like 80/20. Most players don't bother reading or/and voice their opinions in the forums, twitter etc and just plays the game and when it becomes shit they just leave. My impression of what the players i have been talking to think about the lab and wants for the game.

You've stopped, others have started, you can trust that GGG knows exactly what's going on financially if they know any one thing.

People have been decrying certain decisions GGG has made for at least 5 years now. They've been talking about the split community and the destruction of the game. There's a hilarious "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING" thread around here somewhere.

But the real reason to respond to this is:

Is there a source for your numbers on the breakdown of the attitude towards the lab in the playerbase besides your ass? This is exactly the type of damned nonsense people need to stop.


What i try to communicate to ggg and the community is that in my experience in this game people i talk to don't like the lab, it's really that simple. i don't like it, they don't like it, it's not rocket science. Our conversation is just another example of the split community that has been materialized because of the lab (thank you btw for making a good example of this issue). I simply just want the ascendancy points to be removed of being gated behind something that is not an arpg experience/gameplay. I just want ggg to find a way so everyone can be happy including you that like the lab. What's wrong with that, seriously . And no i don't write down every statistic of people's opinions i encounter of people being positive or negative towards the lab, it's more of a feedback to me from others i talk to and i don't troll anyone when i say the lab is not wanted by the people behind me ( most of them hundreds of people, almost all of them have already moved on to other games ) . I simply just want poe to reach goat status (my love to the game) of an arpg game because imo it's the best arpg ever by far atm of being just that ( an incredible achievement ), lab is a speedbump to that sadly. Poe imo is just so ridiculously good game despite its flaws and devs lack of touch for the arpg genre. Lack of skills to balance the game also btw. If the ascendancy points is still gonna be gated behind another game ( the lab ) no matter what happens, its still gonna be a good game, goat arpg well no ... a good game yes. Another game in the future being a better arpg yes no doubt.
Don't get me wrong but i am rooting for poe and ggg and want the best for them and its damn awesome such a small company have been able to make such a good game as they have, ggg can if they want to fix this problem. I dunno who in ggg that made the lab and it doesn't really matter but there is no doubt its a problem, if it wasn't we wouldn't even have the discussion at all but here we are talking about it. Honestly gggs lab is about the same speedbump to the arpg genre that d3 had with its lack of build/stat diversity , in other ways but same level of arpg genre killing.

The lab is objectively not a success when it's so many people that don't like it or even hate it. ggg knows this, you know this, i know this and every poe player knows this. I am not even going to mention the speed meta the ascendancy points and enchants with the atlas expansion have created to the game. The lab is a failure and this is something ggg devs will grow from and become better in the future hopefully. The lab in a vacuum technically is not bad its just doesn't fit poe and arpgs. It's not fun for true pure arpgfans and imo the most important thing in a game is to have fun, we go to work and want to come home and sit in front of our pcs and enjoy our freetime and here we are being tortured and bored to death by the lab and its build diversity-destroying design. The labs rewards is just so extremely important for making many different characters/builds but because of its lack of true arpg experience and fun its just killing it instead for too many players. The lab is creating a problem that shouldn't even be a problem but the devs was too ambitious with this one i am sorry. I give them credit for being ambitious but not everything works out.

Have a nice day/night everyone :)
Last edited by Devonor on May 17, 2017, 7:19:16 PM
I don't like to complain or to say shit about other's work when I did nothing to improve it but... I also don't enjoy the labyrinth even a bit. I do it just for the ascendancy points which are a must if you want to make your build work, at least the 6 first points maybe the last ones are an exquisitness ok. But I agree that the need to do this lab to unlock that leveling feature is a pain in the ass, but only because how the lab is designed. The fact that if you die to a stupid trap, you failed to dodge 1 Izaro ability or you failed to remove every single buff on the previous 2 boss encounters, or you get dced forces you to re run the lab is annoying as fuck. Too many things can make you fail instantly and most of them are not related to player skill. I don't even think no one ever thinks of killing Argus for that extra key... let's be realistic, we all do it for the points because even on uber lab the chests are trash most times except when you get the currency ones which may contain 1 or 2 chaos. The enchantment... if you get the specific one for your build from the hundreds of posibilities it's a huge power boost ok, but you would need to be extremely lucky or run it hundreds of times to get it being it really difficult hundreds of times and needing to farm the "keys" to that uber lab (if you are going for the enchantment better go for the better one). Just for that enchantment such a boring lab where you can fail so easily even with the most powerful character doesn't seem worth the time it takes.
And I don't see reducing the time it takes to complete it make it worth still, even if they remove the need of the offering of the goddess (which it seems) for the uber lab.

I like some suggestions some other players made like leaving only 1 uber lab, and end game lab, for those who enjoy it and want the treasures and enchantments, and give the ascendancy points through storyline like after boss fights. If you want to keep them 2 points at a time you can still do it and start giving the points only with the new act bosses.

I hope you take into consideration what most of the community really wants, after all the beta didn't still came out there is still time to change that I guess or maybe on another future patch.
In OP:

The decision to remove the Cruel and Merciless difficulties with the launch of Path of Exile: The Fall of Oriath has a lot of tangentially-related changes associated with it. One of the largest is how the Labyrinth ties into gameplay and the new layout of the world. We've written a Development Manifesto that outlines the upcoming changes.

I don't see how one of the largest changes is Labyrinth, at least from a player perspective. A waypoint was added which slightly speeds things up, when compared using to the Sarn waypoint. Trials were adjusted and the first labyrinth was slightly shortened. The UI became less unintuitive (ie: there actually is a UI now) by letting you track your progress. That's it.

These are all small bandaids and minor pain medication handed out to treat the same open wound that shows no sign of healing on its own.

It's the gameplay in labyrinth that's the core of the problem and none of these changes does a thing to fix the fundamental, underlying problem that labyrinth provides a boring and frustrating in-game experience.

Now that prestige classes will finally leave lab in 4.0, will GGG get it right this time or will they find new ways to repeat old mistakes?

Can you please do something to increase finding the Uber Lab trials... In SSF I still stuck on trying to find the last trial at level 88. Even when not SSF I hate having to look in channels to try and find someone and join their party to do the trials.

If trial spawns in a map it should be 100% one that you don't have.
Astealoth wrote:
The lab is extremely problematic and shortening the trivial early ones is not helpful or wanted.

The content is broadly hated, but the rewards are so insanely powerful that you have very little choice but to participate in it. You can't just ignore them and go on with your life and have a competitive character, considering that the other content is tuned with the expectation that you have done the lab. The problem is, the rest of the game is much more diverse and inclusive. Every tier of map up to T17 has something for just about every kind of build and every skill level of player to tackle.

The lab is extremely specific in what is required to finish it. The traps and boss require precise twitch movement beyond what the majority of the game requires or extreme physical resistance beyond what the majority of the game requires. This makes the lab itself very build and/or player dexterity exclusive. This is not in line with the majority of the game's content, yet much of the game's content benefits significantly from the rewards of the lab. There is a terribly abusive design problem going on here just in the core mechanics of combat and traps in the lab.

Then there is the reward structure beyond the basic skill point progression. You simply can not expect to enchant your own helmet with something relevant to your primary skill within the time spans of a league. It is not possible, you would have to devote 100% of your time to the lab for the entire league to even dream of a hint of a chance. So, no SSF enchanting, period. Not going to happen, maybe 1 in 1000 SSF players might get a relevant enchant on the timescale of a league. So we're forced to trade for our helmets and sell the helmets we enchant. That's fine for most people perhaps, but what if you use an uncommon helmet? Oh my goodness, someone dares to play a suboptimal self designed build in this game? String them up by the heels and flog them in the eye until they vomit blood! That scrub wears a T2 helmet, HA! Is this really what the game needs? Who at GGG genuinely believes that this enchant system makes sense?

This is spot on

I am not as eloquent or sober as the chap i'm quoting but the lab just doesn't fit in with the rest of the game
I'm old, an alcoholic and my reactions are to put it mildly not what they used to be. I also choose to play HC because any challenges I manage mean something - and believe me I struggle to get out of bed some days so even a small totem at the end of a league is an achievement

The argument that the lab is optional is not valid as from what I can see, GGG assume the lab will be done and have adjusted the content accordingly.

I've been playing since the original closed beta and generally feel Chris and the team have succeeded in creating a game they (and we) want to play. The lab is the only major thing I feel they have got wrong

Can you please listen to your players on this one Chris?????
IGN - LeNavetBete

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