Damage Over Time Changes - More Information Part 2

sephrinx wrote:
I never understood what people meant by dot damage "Double dipping" - it's not double dipping. Bleed/Burn/Poison for an amount based off the initial hit.

If you hit for more, they bleed for more.

johndrake666 wrote:
sounds like meh.. will do the new content and quit again getting bored on the game for some reason.

Yeah, I don't like to farm for 2999 hours for 2 exalted orbs to buy a minor piece of gear to increase the rate at which I acquire 2 more exalted orbs.

I'm all about a grind and gear treadmill, it just gets to a point where things are so vastly out of reach it's pointless.

to touch on why it's called "double dipping" in the current patch. For example, if you had 100% increased generic (double-dip capable) damage, and a base damage of 1000. Your initial hit will deal 2000 damage, which makes sense. Let's say this damage applies some DoT that is based on the initial hit; let's say it's 5% of the initial hit per second for 4 seconds. You would think this would deal 2000*0.20 = 400 damage over 4 seconds (100 damage per second). However, this is not the case - it is dealing (2000*0.2)*2 = 800 damage over 4 seconds, because for some odd reason that 100% increased generic damage is applying AGAIN to the DoT, after it has calculated its base damage (400) from the initial hit (2000). In the new system, the DoT will have some base damage not based on the initial hit, so that the 100% increased damage can apply once to the hit damage (1000*2 = 2000), and once to the DoT (1000*0.2*2 = 400). Before 3.0, that hit would deal 2800 damage. After 3.0 hits, it will deal 2400. It doesn't sound like much with only 100% increased damage, but throw a higher increased modifier (around 500%?) and a couple of "more" modifiers and the difference becomes quite apparent quite quickly.
iamntbatman wrote:
Yeah, but then other things scale it more. If you hit someone with fire damage and they ignite, the amount of the ignite scales off the initial hit, increased by, say, increased fire damage. But then the ignite is fire damage as well, so is increased by the same increased fire damage modifier a second time.

It gets even zanier when DoT effects inherit tags of the skills that caused them. So if I poison a bunch of enemies with an AoE skill like Earthquake, the poison scales off the Earthquake hit. Since Earthquake is an area skill, the damage can be increased with increased area damage. Makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that the poison that's now on the enemies inherited that "area" tag from the Earthquake gem, so now the poison *also* scales with your increased area damage. So often it's more than double-dipping, as people scale their DoTs with multiple things that double-dip, like increased chaos damage, area damage, etc.

It also counts for damage conversion builds, which is why things that convert damage are often getting nerfed (like Pyre). If you used the old 100% cold-to-fire Pyre ring and had something that gave you increased elemental damage, it would work twice: scaling the original cold damage of the skill, then scaling the fire damage after the conversion took place.

Yeah, that all makes perfect sense.

Hit something harder, it will take more damage. Very simple.

It's an AoE hit? --> Inc AoE Damage.
It's a fire skill? ..> Inc Fire Damage

It doesn't matter what it is, it will still equate to a larger initial hit, therefore the secondary damage over time will be larger.

Take a big rock and hit something. Now take that same rock, but make it bigger and hit something. It does more damage!
~ Seph
Obbu wrote:
I just replied to the previous manifesto post and noticed this one, so I'll re-iterate it here:

I have a question about the changes to remove blanket status effects:

Is stun regarded as an "ailment" also? it seems to have been omitted from all mentions of the previous manifesto posts discussing ailment changes.

Stun focused builds suffer from blanket immunities in much the same way that freeze builds do.

With the removal of blanket immunities, hypothermia as a choice becomes viable in situations where immunities would have removed it from the equation previously, damage-wise.

Stun builds suffer from the same complete-removal-of-build-mechanic as freeze builds do: and in cases where you rely on stun for endurance charge generation, an unwavering monster like the Minotaur Guardian can completely shut that down (possibly 2 jewels in your main attack become irrelevant vs unwavering: stun and endurance charge on melee stun).

In extreme cases, such as vigilant strike character using endurance charges as main-attack fuel, this would completely lock down your build on both defense and offense.

Is there any chance that stun will be included in the ailments pass?

Stun is the thematic of Mace but has not gotten enough spotlight in game. I do know it can stun lock most bosses if properly built, however, current game situation gives little merit to the stun mechanism.

I think switching the position of bleed and stun would be nice but I know that is not what GGG wants. Not only the immunity problem, but also stun should get some damage multiplier inherent for the stun status, (or from ascendancy class but least desirable (or from gems in the worst case)) etc.
Last edited by TrichocereusSP on May 11, 2017, 1:51:55 AM
Mark_GGG wrote:
As a result of these changes, I infer that minions will still benefit from poison double dipping, is this correct?
No. No damage modifiers will double-dip for Bleeding, Poison or Ignite. Since those were the only Damage over Time effects that did double-dip, this means no Damage over Time effects in the game will double-dip any more.

Mark_GGG wrote:

New System

Am I correct Minion damage modifiers will apply the same as above diagram so that minion damage modifiers will not double dip anymore?
Apparently someone did the math and the changes are 95% less ignite damage? as a result?

if thats so then ignite will be killed
we want aoe changes! >>> nerfed aoe to the ground
we want double dipping changes! >>> nerfed poison/bleed/ignite to the ground
nice overview, thanks mark:

can we call "burning damage modifiers" ==> "ignite damage modifiers"?

it could confuse people into thinking that "burning damage" is a different damage type than "ignite damage".
age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill
Last edited by vio on May 11, 2017, 4:18:55 AM
Thx Mark_GGG, your graphic explains it all so much better!! Also, why didn't you post it before? It would have saved me some headache.
"Metas rotate all the time, eventually the developers will buff melee"
PoE 2013-2018
Let's talk about bleeding guys,

Weapon Elemental damage support gem become Elemental damage with attack,

what about melee physical damage support and melee damage on full life? does it become physical damage with melee attack?

Stop talk about poison,ignite, let's talk bleeding which is poorest damage source on POE.

Last edited by dksrlcjf14 on May 11, 2017, 2:49:50 AM
sherkhan wrote:
Mark_GGG wrote:
But Shock is already quite powerful, I think you might be selling it short there.

The problem with shock is that it's most efficiently applied with either Vinktar or Vaal Lightning Trap.

Combined with the lack of a lightning DoT, that leaves very little reason to build around lightning as a main source of damage.

I don't see where shock is bad. my season starter was a shock nova build. had my guy up to around 200k damage and cleared things just fine. Other then boss fights cause boss was immune to shock.

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