Damage Over Time Changes - Part 2

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SmileAndNod wrote:
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Lord_Tao wrote:


You might be misunderstanding the concept of 'double dip'. In poison you literally had increases in damage apply again to damage it already scaled.

Say you have 50% increased area damage. Currently in poison you have:

Base damage X *(1+ .50 increased area damage)= hit damage Poison = 0.08* hit damage (which is already scaled by the increased area damage) X (1+ .50 increased area damage)

So poison damage = 0.08*[Base *1.5]* 1.5 <-- the area damage increase is in that formula twice, multiplying itself.

In the new system, if an increase in damage scales both your hit, and the poison there is absolutely nothing wrong with that as it isn't a double dip, since poison isn't scaled off the hit damage, only the attack base damage.

It would have been better to keep the old system and not scale bleed/poison/ignite a second time except by increases specifically for bleed/poison/ignite (or burning).


That being said, I wouldn't say that ignoring the down side of GMP as being OP. A finished build will have say 400% increased damage from all sources. So currently poison would be: 0.08*[base damage X 5.00] * 5.00 which is OP.

However under the new system (assuming the same build with 400% in bonuses to attack skill damage) poison is 0.08 X base damage X 1.00. None of the 400% applies which is faaaarrr from worth the benefit of not having the less modifier from GMP.

Put another way: Increases for your attack damage or poison damage don't apply to the other damage source. This effectively makes every increase to damage on the passive tree half value. Double dipping made them double value, or more correctly: added again as a MORE damage multiplier for the poison. Instead, the passive nodes should be at face value and this would be done by having poison work as it did, just without scaling the poison damage a second time.



That's what I've said. Because you can't double dip anymore, you'll either be doing DOT or Base damage.

As for poison, you'll have to take into consideration that there will be more DOT multiplier in the new league in terms of support gems and passive nodes. Not only that, you'll get poison chance mods from weapon as well so you don't need to link poison support gem. And because DOT isn't affect by base damage modifier so you can get more projectiles to stack up poison faster. Unlike base damage, poison damage stacks infinitely. Which means that it is better for you have faster stacking. The new league would double poison DOT as well. The draw back would be that your based damage will be crap if you focus on your DOT.

At the end of the day, you won't be getting the same damage as you would in double dipping. But you can still make poison work if you go a DOT build.



The reason isn't because you can't double dip anymore. The reason is they removed double dipping AND then removed universal scaling (double nerf).

For example, Increased fire damage would apply to the hit (which scaled the ignite, then was applied again to the ignite which means that node was multiplied by itself. Increased fire damage at least still scales both, but increased attack, projectile, aoe, etc don't scale both anymore, along with no longer double dipping.

Also hit damage stacks the same as poison, by hit. You stack hit damage by attacking faster just like poison.

As for the new weapon mods, they are only on the weapon types which were the problem. Wands and others which didn't abuse poison or bleed as badly are really left in the dust with the new system as they can't roll them.


I think you over estimate how well some of the 'advantages' for poison will work, compared to how much poison looses. Not having GMP affect poison and the new X2 multiplier still leaves poison far lower than it should be by just removing the double dip.

Also DOT nodes if they were 10% for a basic one before would have to be 20-30% to make up for the loss in damage. Notables would need to be in the ball park of 100%.

Here is the math to show how bad the double ner is, and the X2 or not being affected by GMP doesn't put a dent in the deficit.

Some math to illustrate the point:

Say you have increased:

Physical damage 100%

Attack damage 100%

Aoe damage 100%

Projectile damage 100%

More area damage 50%

Old system

A 100 dam phys hit would do:

100*(5.0) *(1.5)= 750 hit damage. Poison would do 750* 0.08= 60 base poison damage *(4.0) *(1.5)= 360 double dipped poison damage (the increased physical doesn't double dip poison, but it double dips bleed)

60 poison damage would be a fine change

*This would be increased by your crit multiplier (once as it doesn't double dip).

New system

Damage =750. Poison = 100*0.08 *1.00 =8 X2 for new mechanic =16.0 poison damage
*note that none of the damage above, even attack damage scales poison anymore on top of not double dipping anymore. Also no crit multiplier.

From that example, the poison damage per second is going from the 360 currently to 16. Going to 60 damage (which is the value before double dipping) would be fine.
Last edited by Lord_Tao on May 5, 2017, 3:06:50 PM
Why do people say double dipping will be removed? Technically, if elemental damage increases fire skill damage and ignite damage, that is in fact double dipping. Just because global generic damage increase doesnt double dip anymore doesnt mean double dipping is removed.

I came back to this game after several years break and had to learn the mechanics of the game again. I can only speak for myself, but i didnt expect increased elemental damage to both increase the skill and the ignite. The ignite is already based off the skills fire damage, so why would it get increased one more time? Same with poison.

This doesnt make logically sense and is a mechanic that never should have been in the game. But im guessing the developers like to have the game be cryptic and more complicated than it has to be. Then again, double dipping is already in the game and you now suddenly want to make it much weaker and kill build diversity? Poison/ ignite is not even top meta, so why should it be nerfed? If you are gonna nerf damage mechanics you should do it across the board. Just look at the ultra strong builds that doesnt even use poison/ ignite.
IGN: SynergyHC
Last edited by Synergy1337 on May 6, 2017, 7:14:41 PM
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Synergy1337 wrote:
Why do people say double dipping will be removed? Technically, if elemental damage increases fire skill damage and ignite damage, that is in fact double dipping. Just because global generic damage increase doesnt double dip anymore doesnt mean double dipping is removed.


People say double dipping is being removed, because you won't be double dipping.

Yes, there are stats that will effect both parts of an attack, but you're not double dipping with it.

An example of double dipping, is +fire damage with Ignite.

Where currently, if you had I don't know, 20% more Fire damage on a skill that deals 100 Fire damage the following would occur:

Initial hit would be boosted by 20%, up to 120 Fire damage. Ignite would be based off this (Increased) number dealing a base of 96 damage, then would itself be boosted by the 20% so would end up doing 115 damage.

So that's double dipping. Since you're getting this 20% more fire damage, twice, on the Ignite because the initial hit and any boosts it has gets transferred to the DoT, then boosted by things that boost the DoT.

Meanwhile, the new system with the same 20% more Fire damage on the same skill would have the initial hit doing the same 120 damage, but the Ignite is based on the base damage of the hit, so would be doing 80 damage base, which is then affected by the boost up to 96.

As you can see, while the boost will affect both parts of the attack, it only increases them a single time each, rather than boosting the ignite twice effectively (Well, actually, a bit more than that since 80 * 1.4 is 112. In this scenario this 20% more fire damage is actually boosting the Ignite by 44% due to the effects of double dipping)
As someone who loves playing ED I now must ask few things about it that may or may not be in Oriath update.

a) will there be another +1 or +2 radius increase to contagion because it feels super clunky to play now after AoE nerf. (Or generally a lot more AoE from quality/level)

b) because passives wont scale other DoT inflicted by ED aka decay weapon and consuming dark I must ask how badly will the damage on the gem gonna be increased to make skill actual end-game viable? Its not gonna be glacial hammer type of buff right?... right?

c) and finally does poison inflicted by consuming dark can be scaled by any passives/gear etc?
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Tarille wrote:
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Synergy1337 wrote:
Why do people say double dipping will be removed? Technically, if elemental damage increases fire skill damage and ignite damage, that is in fact double dipping. Just because global generic damage increase doesnt double dip anymore doesnt mean double dipping is removed.


People say double dipping is being removed, because you won't be double dipping.

Yes, there are stats that will effect both parts of an attack, but you're not double dipping with it.

An example of double dipping, is +fire damage with Ignite.

Where currently, if you had I don't know, 20% more Fire damage on a skill that deals 100 Fire damage the following would occur:

Initial hit would be boosted by 20%, up to 120 Fire damage. Ignite would be based off this (Increased) number dealing a base of 96 damage, then would itself be boosted by the 20% so would end up doing 115 damage.

So that's double dipping. Since you're getting this 20% more fire damage, twice, on the Ignite because the initial hit and any boosts it has gets transferred to the DoT, then boosted by things that boost the DoT.

Meanwhile, the new system with the same 20% more Fire damage on the same skill would have the initial hit doing the same 120 damage, but the Ignite is based on the base damage of the hit, so would be doing 80 damage base, which is then affected by the boost up to 96.

As you can see, while the boost will affect both parts of the attack, it only increases them a single time each, rather than boosting the ignite twice effectively (Well, actually, a bit more than that since 80 * 1.4 is 112. In this scenario this 20% more fire damage is actually boosting the Ignite by 44% due to the effects of double dipping)


In my mind, that is not changing double dipping, only changing how it works. If increases to fire damage will still affect the fire skill hit and ignite, that is technically double dipping. Nerfing it so the ignite will only be based of the base damage is not removing double dipping. Why would an ignite by itself be affected by any damage increases when its already affected by the hit (base damage multiplied by increased damage)?

I dont think its normal for mechanics in other RPGs to let increases to fire damage affect both the hit and the ignite seperately. Thats what increases to burning damage is for. What i propose is to let an ignite be only based of the initial hit multiplied by increases to damage. Thats it. Then increases to fire damage will only dip ONCE.
IGN: SynergyHC
Last edited by Synergy1337 on May 7, 2017, 7:13:10 PM
Dont make DOT mandatory! Dont buff base dmg It will be same broken mandatory as now (just slightly weaker).

Also physical damage not scale any DOT, while mines, traps, etc will DD? Why so hate phys dmg?
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Last edited by TreeOfDead on May 8, 2017, 7:38:10 AM
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TreeOfDead wrote:
Dont make DOT mandatory! Dont buff base dmg It will be same broken mandatory as now (just slightly weaker).

Also physical damage not scale any DOT, while mines, traps, etc will DD? Why so hate phys dmg?


Excuse me ?!!

The phy close and long range builds is the most OP in POE fellow.
if You are looking for OP build - this definitely is a phy build / converter phy to ele..
Just one very disappointed PoE fan.
CI casters made PoE to the top, and GGG decided to kill them.
Best decision ever ( if you are retarded or something ) !
2 x Xeon E5 2695 V4 ( 36 cores/72 threads ) / 128 GB RAM / 2 x GTX 1080 / 3 x Philips 55" displays / 1200W PSU / 4 x 512 GB SSD / 2 x 8 TB HDD
Since it is almost a complete overhaul.
I was wondering if:
Conditional modifiers works with DOT now?

that is, previously mods like " increased Damage against Hindered Enemies" or "more Damage against Chilled Enemies" will not work on DOTs. Is that going to be the same case in 3.0?
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NomuraSho wrote:
Since it is almost a complete overhaul.
I was wondering if:
Conditional modifiers works with DOT now?

that is, previously mods like " increased Damage against Hindered Enemies" or "more Damage against Chilled Enemies" will not work on DOTs. Is that going to be the same case in 3.0?

This is probably not going to be fixed for a long time, since this would require recalculating player damage dealt for every single dot tick, causing severe lag. It'd be nice if they made an equivalent of ele pen for dots, but my expectations are pretty low at this point, seeing as they basically gutted bleed and made poison only useful on pure chaos builds, mines/traps/minions, and viper strike :/ .
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elvenchakra wrote:
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NomuraSho wrote:
Since it is almost a complete overhaul.
I was wondering if:
Conditional modifiers works with DOT now?

that is, previously mods like " increased Damage against Hindered Enemies" or "more Damage against Chilled Enemies" will not work on DOTs. Is that going to be the same case in 3.0?

This is probably not going to be fixed for a long time, since this would require recalculating player damage dealt for every single dot tick, causing severe lag. It'd be nice if they made an equivalent of ele pen for dots, but my expectations are pretty low at this point, seeing as they basically gutted bleed and made poison only useful on pure chaos builds, mines/traps/minions, and viper strike :/ .


Technically, they could just make DoTs ignore resists.

I mean, many people are complaining about how low damage DoTs will be due to scaling off the base damage of hits and requiring magnitudes of %increases to become something considerable at all.

Ignoring resists would be a way of significantly upping their damage without needing so many huge modifiers.

Make it a keystone passive and you can prevent it messing with PC's (Thus killing RF builds).

Throw in some penetration on some DoT passives too and you can hit some negative resist values like some elemental hits can (Via Pen gem + 2x resistance curse + EE = -170% resists without even any +curse effectiveness)

Only issue would be Bleed since it already ignores armour and there's no way to make it do more... (Other than make the bleeding targets move, but that's not particularly feasible in all scenarios. Especially for melee, who ironically, get the most support for making things bleed...). I suppose maybe a passive could work to get bonus Bleed damage somehow. Maybe to make it useful, give it some percent health damage? Bonus damage for bleeds applied to already bleeding targets? IDK.

As a side note, ignoring Resists would also make ED not so heavily reliant on playing Witch (Given Occultist has monopoly on pretty much the only Chaos Resist debuff)

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