Melee builds are complete trash

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Peterlerock wrote:

Just curiuos... where does this come from? What content did you fight that I haven't?

Should I just copy/paste my post from the page earlier?

I've actually beat uber Izaro for the first time on my first try on my SSF character. That doesn't mean the character is a viable uber lab runner.
I shot and I scored. If I continued to run uber lab I'd be dying left and right and would halt the leveling process.

Same thing happens with melee.

Go ahead and do 50+ vaaled t15's with your melee character, let me know how much progress you've achieved.

This is one of the things that you really just have to do it by yourself, since nothing else helps bridging the gap.

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What triggers me to venture into these threads is not "balance".
I'm aware balance is off (the question is: in what direction should the game go?).

It's people taking claims about life/melee that are far from true.

"life builds cannot even reach 6k without belly/kaom"
"life builds cannot kill Shaper"
"life builds invest 80% of their passive points in defense"
"melee cannot even clear t11"
"melee cannot do this/do that"
"they didn't even put legacy kaom's in reliquary"
...which are just BS.

As I've said, you people are arguing with yourselves. Step back, take a breath, get back and actually read what we're typing.

Not really answering my question.

Uber Lab is super easy on any life/armour/melee build, because in there, mitigation actually works as intended.

You haven't done hundreds of top tier maps as I have. None of you "melee is fine" combined have done as much.

Melee isn't that bad up to lvl 90. Everybody knows that.

Basically, all you "melee is fine" boyz give up when it really becomes bad. And then you come here gloating and linking your shit builds.

i gotta admit i was skimming but

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RagnarokChu wrote:

But we ignore this because all other close ranged abilities aren't "True melee" because we are basically only focusing on shit abilities in point 1 and 2.

RagnarokChu seems to have the real insights here, there is no question that "true melee" builds are 100% trash and will always be trash compared to other endgame options, and there is literally nothing that GGG can do to fix that apart from inflicting at least 75% less pack size across the board in endgame content

"true melee" has no place in current game design, expected pack size of average player challenge is just waaaaaaaaaay too high now, it is meaningless to talk about "true melee" because it does not fit in the game design that GGG has entrenched themselves in.

hence when you have the viewpoint

"

(lacerate is not melee, just a reminder)

then of course melee is trash, because you're artificially restricting the scope of melee

(this includes removing spell block by the way, like, OK, Life has certain tools it can use in place of ES to get comparable results, and you just kinda arbitrarily say "no you can't have that"? uhhhh ok bro)

Slapping "melee" tag on top of a skill doesn't mean it's really melee.
When with the same "melee" skills you can hit a monster from more than half a screen away with no AoE investment.

And even Sunder/EQ/IC which are the pinnacle of melee (besides BF) are way worse than the top ranged skills.
BF has its place in the top but that's it.

That does indeed mean that melee has no place. That's pretty much what we are saying, if you only bothered to read properly instead of making stuff up and argue with yourselves.

And we would like melee to have its place, on par with ranged.

Talking about such a horrible imbalance is meaningless to you? Then leave, you had no business here in the first place with the way you collect attention.

It's called feedback. It's likely in vain because GGG has been shitting on melee since Beta and there are no signs of a switch in direction.

But we like playing melee and that's why we're wasting our time on these feedbacks.

It's not that hard to realize this.

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tinko92 wrote:

Slapping "melee" tag on top of a skill doesn't mean it's really melee.
When with the same "melee" skills you can hit a monster from more than half a screen away with no AoE investment.

And even Sunder/EQ/IC which are the pinnacle of melee (besides BF) are way worse than the top ranged skills.
BF has its place in the top but that's it.

That does indeed mean that melee has no place. That's pretty much what we are saying, if you only bothered to read properly instead of making stuff up and argue with yourselves.

And we would like melee to have its place, on par with ranged.

Talking about such a horrible imbalance is meaningless to you? Then leave, you had no business here in the first place with the way you collect attention.

It's called feedback. It's likely in vain because GGG has been shitting on melee since Beta and there are no signs of a switch in direction.

But we like playing melee and that's why we're wasting our time on these feedbacks.

It's not that hard to realize this.

I already went with it in-depth with my post. Melee has a place, shitty basic auto attacks variants have 0 place in a game with no cooldowns, mana costs and many other factors that usually makes auto attacks worth using.

You will never have auto attack variants viable in this game because by all game design choices they are almost always the possible weakest in any game. If I had a choice between one attack or double strike I would choose double strike.

I can wear voidheart, turn on herald of ash, turn on hate aura, go crit, play a slayer and get aoe splash and dual wield two 1h weapons with different effects and combine almost every single "true melee attack" all in one go. If almost every single "true melee" attack can be fused into one before even choosing what attack you want to use then what are we really talking about here? You would just pick the best melee attack for single target then (molten strike).

Thus just give up the fight about "true melee" and just talk about the melee tag.

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tinko92 wrote:

That does indeed mean that melee has no place. That's pretty much what we are saying, if you only bothered to read properly instead of making stuff up and argue with yourselves.

Path of Exile provides a definition of melee. One would assume that a Path of Exile forum post discussing melee would use the game's definition of melee. Where in this thread did we specify that Lacerate and its ilk are not considered melee, before I popped in with my lazyposting?

"

And we would like melee to have its place, on par with ranged.

What kind of astrophysics are you capable of that you think "true melee" can possibly hope to be on par with ranged with modern pack size? Put Melee Splash on a skill -> it's no longer true melee. Heck, even Cleave is not true melee because it has AoE. Slap an IAoE on it and suddenly we're again artificially adjusting the scope of the argument to fit one's point of view.

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Talking about such a horrible imbalance is meaningless to you?

Please, tell me what kind of miracle you can conceive of that hitting one monster at a time can possibly compete with skills that can hit multiple enemies when screens can literally be filled with over a hundred enemies.

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It's called feedback. It's likely in vain because GGG has been shitting on melee since Beta and there are no signs of a switch in direction.

"I don't like it, make it better" isn't terribly helpful for game developers.

Giving pure power to "true melee" wouldn't help either, as comparable "non-melee" builds can one-shot even the hardest content.

So you're saying that we should nerf spells and bows??? I can get behind this!!!

(We would also need to cut pack size by at least 75% less if the game isn't to feel horribly, horribly slow).

Your "has a place" is not what I mean by that.

When something has a place it means it's balanced. And only 1 "melee" skill is actually balanced and it's called BF (not sure with the latest mini nerf but I take it's still a top "melee" skill).

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You will never have auto attack variants viable in this game because by all game design choices they are almost always the possible weakest in any game.

Rubbish. A constantly parroted rubbish.

I mean, look at what you're saying here... Melee will never be viable in this game because of the current state where the game is now.

You know something we don't (inside info)? Or what?


Melee was fine in Beta and is fine in other ARPGs. The fact is that melee can be on par with ranged, it just depends on the devs.

You saying it will never be viable is simply rubbish.

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tinko92 wrote:

Melee was fine in Beta and is fine in other ARPGs.

Because average pack size for the average player was about 20% what it is now.

Do you think the player base will accept a return to that state?

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tinko92 wrote:

Your "has a place" is not what I mean by that.

When something has a place it means it's balanced. And only 1 "melee" skill is actually balanced and it's called BF (not sure with the latest mini nerf but I take it's still a top "melee" skill).

"

You will never have auto attack variants viable in this game because by all game design choices they are almost always the possible weakest in any game.

Rubbish. A constantly parroted rubbish.

I mean, look at what you're saying here... Melee will never be viable in this game because of the current state where the game is now.

You know something we don't (inside info)? Or what?


Melee was fine in Beta and is fine in other ARPGs. The fact is that melee can be on par with ranged, it just depends on the devs.

You saying it will never be viable is simply rubbish.

Did you just ignore the rest of the post?

Also if we are talking about meta skills almost all them literally aren't melee or ranged and involve filling up the screen with your attack constantly or are nontraditional skills.

Because I'm pretty sure the meta-top tier vaal sparks, corpsi discharger, spectral throw (melee and ranged in one go!), double dipping builds, low-life rightous fire and the likes aren't traditional ranged, melee or spell builds. All top tier meta builds transcend traditional limitations of a "build" anyway.

"

I can wear voidheart, turn on herald of ash, turn on hate aura, go crit, play a slayer and get aoe splash and dual wield two 1h weapons with different effects and combine almost every single "true melee attack" all in one go. If almost every single "true melee" attack can be fused into one before even choosing what attack you want to use then what are we really talking about here? You would just pick the best melee attack for single target then (molten strike).

This is the most important part right here. Bladeflurry is good because it can also combine EVERY SINGLE TRUE MELEE mechanic in it's attack too.