Lol I completely missed that post. Great minds and all that.
Here's another interesting tidbit about the Christian take on that: The Bible claims regularly that god is "all merciful" and "most merciful". Funnily enough, the Islamic take on the garden of Eden is demonstrably more merciful. God punishes eve, but spares anyone else from punishment over the whole thing by saying we can only be held responsible for our own actions.
The fact that a more merciful scenario can even be conceptualized is in itself a demonstration that the Christian God is not "all merciful" by any means.
Last edited by MonstaMunch#6519 on May 24, 2017, 10:49:48 AM
Very true. The entire idea of a merciful God in contrast to a God who punishes the next 107 billion people for the crimes of his first two flawed creations (not that God made a mistake of course, that can't happen) is already nonsensical to begin with. Any thinking person should be able to come up with a more merciful way of handling the situation on their own.
Very true. The entire idea of a merciful God in contrast to a God who punishes the next 107 billion people for the crimes of his first two flawed creations (not that God made a mistake of course, that can't happen) is already nonsensical to begin with. Any thinking person should be able to come up with a more merciful way of handling the situation on their own.
You reject God's Mercy, the Son of God, and call the Way unworthy, as if Jesus were inadequate in some way -- as if his crucifixion and his Grace were insufficient. Your stance is clear: so why make a show of it?
If you do not see his Mercy before he comes, how should you expect to see it? You have heard his testimony -- Repent, for the kingdom of God is near, and believe! -- but have rejected and ridiculed it. You reject what you can't fathom -- his divine Love, Mercy, and Grace -- and know only to expect wrath, although you do not believe. And what excuse do you have? It is written:
"
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
The gospel of Jesus Christ is true. Any who confess their sins and proclaim Jesus is Lord and the truth of his Gospel will not perish, but will enjoy everlasting life. We are all sinners, worthy of damnation, in need of redemption and guilty unto death. Were it not for Christ, I would be counted among the damned, and my name would never be found in the book of Life. Jesus is the one true Son of God.
The Word of God:
Spoiler
"
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
"‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."
And:
"
"A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
"Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.’
"But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. ‘This is the heir,’ they said. ‘Let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others."
Ah but see, I'm an atheist so I've already committed the one unforgivable sin willfully and with full understanding of what I was giving up. Forget rape, torture, genocide, slavery... what really matters is a rejection of God and Jesus Christ. It's fine though, I'm sure hell isn't really as bad as they say it is.
Very true. The entire idea of a merciful God in contrast to a God who punishes the next 107 billion people for the crimes of his first two flawed creations (not that God made a mistake of course, that can't happen) is already nonsensical to begin with. Any thinking person should be able to come up with a more merciful way of handling the situation on their own.
You reject God's Mercy, the Son of God, and call the Way "unworthy," as if Jesus were inadequate in some way -- as if his crucifixion and his Grace were insufficient. Your stance is clear: so why make a show of it?
If you do not see his Mercy before he comes, how should you expect to see it? You have heard his testimony -- Repent, for the kingdom of God is near, and believe! -- but have rejected and ridiculed it. You reject what you can't fathom -- his divine Love, Mercy, and Grace -- and know only to expect wrath, although you do not believe. And what excuse do you have? It is written:
"
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
The gospel of Jesus Christ is true. Any who confess their sins and proclaim Jesus is Lord and the truth of his Gospel will not perish, but will enjoy everlasting life. We are all sinners, worthy of damnation, in need of redemption and guilty unto death. Were it not for Christ, I would be counted among the damned, and my name would never be found in the book of Life. Jesus is the one true Son of God.
The Word of God:
Spoiler
"
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
"‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."
And:
"
"A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
"Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.’
"But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. ‘This is the heir,’ they said. ‘Let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others."
- the Lamb
How could you or any man possibly claim to speak for God? What an extreme amount of vanity and self righteousness it would take for a person to speak in such a manner. In fact such a person would have to think himself above God and therefore be a knowing blasphemer and spreader of lies.
The men themselves who 'wrote the word' of God down used corrupted pens and ink to blaspheme and claim to speak in the stead of God himself. The lies of the words written down are the tempter of evil and the corrupter of youth.
No man's word ever written or spoken could ever know the true Word of God and any man purporting to know such unknowable things is a blasphemer.
Very true. The entire idea of a merciful God in contrast to a God who punishes the next 107 billion people for the crimes of his first two flawed creations (not that God made a mistake of course, that can't happen) is already nonsensical to begin with. Any thinking person should be able to come up with a more merciful way of handling the situation on their own.
You reject God's Mercy, the Son of God, and call the Way "unworthy," as if Jesus were inadequate in some way -- as if his crucifixion and his Grace were insufficient. Your stance is clear: so why make a show of it?
If you do not see his Mercy before he comes, how should you expect to see it? You have heard his testimony -- Repent, for the kingdom of God is near, and believe! -- but have rejected and ridiculed it. You reject what you can't fathom -- his divine Love, Mercy, and Grace -- and know only to expect wrath, although you do not believe. And what excuse do you have? It is written:
"
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
The gospel of Jesus Christ is true. Any who confess their sins and proclaim Jesus is Lord and the truth of his Gospel will not perish, but will enjoy everlasting life. We are all sinners, worthy of damnation, in need of redemption and guilty unto death. Were it not for Christ, I would be counted among the damned, and my name would never be found in the book of Life. Jesus is the one true Son of God.
The Word of God:
Spoiler
"
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
"‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."
And:
"
"A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
"Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.’
"But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. ‘This is the heir,’ they said. ‘Let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others."
- the Lamb
How could you or any man possibly claim to speak for God? What an extreme amount of vanity and self righteousness it would take for a person to speak in such a manner. In fact such a person would have to think himself above God and therefore be a knowing blasphemer and spreader of lies.
What a nonsequitur.
"
GeorgAnatoly wrote:
The men themselves who 'wrote the word' of God down used corrupted pens and ink to blaspheme and claim to speak in the stead of God himself. The lies of the words written down are the tempter of evil and the corrupter of youth.
"Tempter of evil"??
"
GeorgAnatoly wrote:
No man's word ever written or spoken could ever know the true Word of God and any man purporting to know such unknowable things is a blasphemer.
C'mon, man; you're just trolling. You don't even believe, so why would you adopt such an argument, accusing others of blasphemy? *Waves hand* I could refute it, but you're just looking for things to say that are antagonist to the Son of God.
If you don't have anything legitimate to say, go grind some maps or something.
You reject God's Mercy, the Son of God, and call the Way unworthy, as if Jesus were inadequate in some way -- as if his crucifixion and his Grace were insufficient. Your stance is clear: so why make a show of it?
If you do not see his Mercy before he comes, how should you expect to see it? You have heard his testimony -- Repent, for the kingdom of God is near, and believe! -- but have rejected and ridiculed it. You reject what you can't fathom -- his divine Love, Mercy, and Grace -- and know only to expect wrath, although you do not believe. And what excuse do you have? It is written:
What is a ""Son"", a son is a reflection of his ""father"". Jesus was not the Messanger, but ""the message"", the body of god. He tried to tell us, a human is accorate reflection of myself and i can suffer as much as you can, ""He created mankind in his Image"".
""He is the father,the son and the holy Spirit"".
The disbeliever feel´s wrath, therefore god feel´s wrath ""he is the Holy Spirit"", because he ultimatly neglect´s ""Life"". The gift of Life is divine Love, mercy etc., he had no reason to create us in the first place, therefore Love,Mercy,Grace.
Look i´m agnostic, i just want to show you, that the bible is subtile, but a masterpiece at that. There is no Point in tearing it appart, for an Atheist the question ends by, Do you believe in God. If the answer is yes, the new Testament provide´s you with a semi accurate description of God.
An ""omnipotent"" being could impose unimaginable suffering upon us, jet he doesnt choice to ""loving Father"". He could have choice to not create us or make us without thought in the first place, jet he didn´t choice to ""we are his children"". The koran and torah on the other Hand, descripes an impulsive god, which does not love mankind.
It all boils down to this; If the world could be better (and I don't see how anyone could argue that it couldn't) then either God isn't capable of making it better, or he has chosen not to. Either of those options contradict claims made of the God of Abraham.
Leibniz argued that it couldn't. he was a smart fella.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-evil/
"the premier Action RPG for hardcore gamers."
-GGG
God by necessity *needs* to create, like in order for God too God He *must* create and that life is an intrinsic good which counter balances the pain and suffering caused by, well, life in general.
That doesn't work because the Bible claims that God is omnipotent. If he can't create good without creating evil then he isn't omnipotent by definition.
Not necessarily, unless you can prove demonstratively that good can exist without evil or vice versa and I am not sure how you can prove that. Maybe this is begging the question, but still it *could* be like saying God could make water not wet - if good/evil have the same corresponding nature.
To be clear what I am saying is that *perhaps* good and evil stand in the same relationship to each other as does whatever sort of intrinsic relationship you like. If that is the case, it isn't possible for God to create a world without Evil.
Now, maybe that falls apart because Christians believe that one day we'll all live on a perfect earth. However, in that world only believers inhabit it - thus no one is left to *decide* anything, so it could be that for God to create a world in which there is Good and people have choices then there Has to be evil.
"the premier Action RPG for hardcore gamers."
-GGG
Happy hunting/fishing
Last edited by Wittgenstein#0994 on May 24, 2017, 8:17:07 PM
An ""omnipotent"" being could impose unimaginable suffering upon us, jet he doesnt choice to ""loving Father"". He could have choice to not create us or make us without thought in the first place, jet he didn´t choice to ""we are his children"". The koran and torah on the other Hand, descripes an impulsive god, which does not love mankind.
It's the same God. Christianity hijacked the Torah. Islam hijacked them both.
Last edited by BodyHammer01#3364 on May 24, 2017, 9:15:23 PM
