@GGG Power Creep & Life Vs. Energy Shield

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sidtherat wrote:

in the second gif the movie cuts just before a ball of death is about to hit him.. just saying.

btw 6k instant? i thought it capped at around 2800 with non pathfinder yet with all flask effect and life recovery mods.

with the budget he used on that legacy/mirror rt life build you can get 3 stronger CI ones.

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biyte wrote:

I think the flask heals that much cuz he got most of the life flask nodes and is using a bloodgrip as well.

Looks like a lot of the expense in his gear went to stuff like +1 curse bloodgrip and vulnerability on hit corruption on gloves, which doesn't really matter that much, and capping out chaos res because it is relevant in pvp, i never checked out shaper so idk if he does chaos dmg in that fight though I have noticed more bosses are doing chaos dmg at high level maps so I agree CI has better value compared to like a few leagues ago. Outside of pvp, can you really call having boots that have haku craft life on it anything close to 'BiS'?

Another thing is the existence of vinktars... fuk that thing.

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Ahfack wrote:

Ya but with pathfinder, vinktar has no downsides. I don't see them changing that aspect of the subclass.

Ah you edited ;) yeah pathfinder is fucked imo

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Jgizle wrote:

Power creep is ruining the game due to the inability to scale monster life, as this makes weak skills with low base damage obsolete. Recently a few mechanics have vastly given us a huge increase in power yet the difficulty remains the same. Specifically mob hp can not be scaled up any more, but mob damage has increased. This inflates problems in other arwas of the game. For example life vs energy shield problems.

Energy shield is very good. Its only downside is that there are no flasks to instantly regenerate it, and passive energy shield recharge rate is hard to obtain (110 % if you get every passive node, if thats possible). Energy shield recharge delay also can only be increased by 15%. What Energy Shield benefits from is from how it works, and how much can be obtained. 10k energy shield is an easily obtainable amount with decent gear at end game, while over 30k is possible on an aura bot.

Compared to life, it is very very difficult to get 10k life, and in the process you sacrifice so much damage to obtain it. ES characters dont have to sacrifice much at all.

This is where the balance of the game in relation to steady increases in power is causing problems for life based characters (via power creep and balance changes to try to give us challenges for the power we are gaining). Monster damage has consistently gone up, while monster hp is pretty much at a point it can not be increased ( without buffing all low base damage skills to keep them from being obsolete).

For life based characters this means worse and worse survivability as time goes on compared to ES simply because you do not die when your ES runs out, and it can be recharged in less than 5 seconds by taking no damage. Life how ever takes more damage and dies when their life reaches 0. Life doesn't have any inherent stun prevention while having even 1 energy shield gives you a 50% chance to resist stun. Energy shield also takes damage after physical mitigation and resistance reduces initial hit damage. For survivability ES is better because you can get recharge rate down to 1 sec and less than 2 sec delay meaning you only have to avoid damage for a few seconds to completely regenerate your ES.

Life has flasks but those have charges and in boss fights you can easily run out. Life regeneration will not save you, its far to slow and to low compared to your life pool. Chaos damage can go through ES but that can be fixed easily.

The best way to play a life based character is a juggernaut with lots of endurance charges and manually casting immortal call for physical damage immunity, but its useless for spells and resists only mitigate so much.

Life and ES has had this trend forever. Life is for survivability with the armor gained from gear you would use on a life based character, and life gained from each point of str.

Energy Shield is for characters foxusing on damage. ES is a buffer for survivability but is useless once depleted in an ongoing fight where you are going to find it difficult to avoid damage.

With increases to the amount of damage we can obtain now, ES is more valuable. You can have a higher pool of damage mitigation with a much larger ES pool, and a much higher damage output, combined with chaos damage immunity (CI), and innate 50% chance to avoid stuns.

What does life got going for it? Less survivabity due to constant monster damage increases, less survivability due to armor being less effective the more you gain, and less survivability due to only being able to effectively dampen physical damage via immortal call, which is based on endurance charges. Without IC life is horrible.

This is all a problem due to power creep and was not much of an issue to me before the introduction of jewels and Ascendancy.

Armor effectiveness needs to be increased and str needs to give more life for investing in it. Being killed in 1 hit with 20k or more atmor, 8k + life, and capped resists as a life based character shows how unbalanced life and ES is. It doesn't matter that life based characters have flasks if they get 1 shot. The chances of getting 1 shot as ES are unlikely and changing play to regen ES for a few seconds is easy.

Finally stop releasing uniques or new mechanics that increase our power substantially. New uniques should never out perform end game unique options, and certainly should never be better than Mirror worthy rares. Instead of constantly releasing new skills tjat are superior to similiar existinf skills, buff existing skills to be more viable.

We have seen how successful a good buff to a skill can be with shield charge. We want that for all skills, and you can make that happen GGG.

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Elua wrote:

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Jgizle wrote:

Power creep is ruining the game due to the inability to scale monster life, as this makes weak skills with low base damage obsolete. Recently a few mechanics have vastly given us a huge increase in power yet the difficulty remains the same. Specifically mob hp can not be scaled up any more, but mob damage has increased. This inflates problems in other arwas of the game. For example life vs energy shield problems.

Energy shield is very good. Its only downside is that there are no flasks to instantly regenerate it, and passive energy shield recharge rate is hard to obtain (110 % if you get every passive node, if thats possible). Energy shield recharge delay also can only be increased by 15%. What Energy Shield benefits from is from how it works, and how much can be obtained. 10k energy shield is an easily obtainable amount with decent gear at end game, while over 30k is possible on an aura bot.

Compared to life, it is very very difficult to get 10k life, and in the process you sacrifice so much damage to obtain it. ES characters dont have to sacrifice much at all.

This is where the balance of the game in relation to steady increases in power is causing problems for life based characters (via power creep and balance changes to try to give us challenges for the power we are gaining). Monster damage has consistently gone up, while monster hp is pretty much at a point it can not be increased ( without buffing all low base damage skills to keep them from being obsolete).

For life based characters this means worse and worse survivability as time goes on compared to ES simply because you do not die when your ES runs out, and it can be recharged in less than 5 seconds by taking no damage. Life how ever takes more damage and dies when their life reaches 0. Life doesn't have any inherent stun prevention while having even 1 energy shield gives you a 50% chance to resist stun. Energy shield also takes damage after physical mitigation and resistance reduces initial hit damage. For survivability ES is better because you can get recharge rate down to 1 sec and less than 2 sec delay meaning you only have to avoid damage for a few seconds to completely regenerate your ES.

Life has flasks but those have charges and in boss fights you can easily run out. Life regeneration will not save you, its far to slow and to low compared to your life pool. Chaos damage can go through ES but that can be fixed easily.

The best way to play a life based character is a juggernaut with lots of endurance charges and manually casting immortal call for physical damage immunity, but its useless for spells and resists only mitigate so much.

Life and ES has had this trend forever. Life is for survivability with the armor gained from gear you would use on a life based character, and life gained from each point of str.

Energy Shield is for characters foxusing on damage. ES is a buffer for survivability but is useless once depleted in an ongoing fight where you are going to find it difficult to avoid damage.

With increases to the amount of damage we can obtain now, ES is more valuable. You can have a higher pool of damage mitigation with a much larger ES pool, and a much higher damage output, combined with chaos damage immunity (CI), and innate 50% chance to avoid stuns.

What does life got going for it? Less survivabity due to constant monster damage increases, less survivability due to armor being less effective the more you gain, and less survivability due to only being able to effectively dampen physical damage via immortal call, which is based on endurance charges. Without IC life is horrible.

This is all a problem due to power creep and was not much of an issue to me before the introduction of jewels and Ascendancy.

Armor effectiveness needs to be increased and str needs to give more life for investing in it. Being killed in 1 hit with 20k or more atmor, 8k + life, and capped resists as a life based character shows how unbalanced life and ES is. It doesn't matter that life based characters have flasks if they get 1 shot. The chances of getting 1 shot as ES are unlikely and changing play to regen ES for a few seconds is easy.

Finally stop releasing uniques or new mechanics that increase our power substantially. New uniques should never out perform end game unique options, and certainly should never be better than Mirror worthy rares. Instead of constantly releasing new skills tjat are superior to similiar existinf skills, buff existing skills to be more viable.

We have seen how successful a good buff to a skill can be with shield charge. We want that for all skills, and you can make that happen GGG.

This is one of best posts about current PoE status.

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Jgizle wrote:

Just for clarification, when i say ES is for damage, i mean builds that are focusing primarily on damage. So the only defenses they focus on is a high ES pool, and their resists. What ever armor they have is all they got, and they go CI for chaos immunity if they dont want to go hybrid life and ES.

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Jgizle wrote:

Life is for tanky characters focusing more on defenses. They go for as high a life pool they can while capping resists and getting a lot of physical damage reduction and armor. A life based character needs to get life in as many places as possible, including Jewels. Life gained for str is very small. I believe its 1 point of life for 2 str meaning 200 base life if you can manage to get 400 str in the avg build. Likewise life based characters are not going to be able to get enough life to avoid stuns, so they are going to need to get stun immunity in passive tree (ES doesnt require it as much as enemies are likely dead already and 50% chance is pretty decent)