[outdated] King of the Forest (Crit version)

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AgentDunham wrote:

@Thaya@emaster
Thank you for your answers boys.
You are indeed correct, I've forgot about grace. Although it's still just 16648 on OP's setup. Dunno if he just doesn't care for more, or I'm still doing some miscalculation.

So queen is only worth getting as long is I know I'll be sitting on a evasion close to 20k.

Ok, I see if I get high rolls on +%chaos on rings/amu it'll make a difference, but 20q chaos gem is just additional 10% too ALL multipliers, right? Can't be that big of a difference. I mean sure if I'm rich as fuck, why not. But making it a priority? So if I get to choose, 21/0 or 20/20? Because 21/20 was like 2.5ex (best deal). OP says he just leveled 6 of them and vaaled, but damn, it's 339,855,551xp which is actually 3,398,555,510 considering earning 10% of xp.

Also it is important to get 21 of other spells? Like barrage/lighting + supports? And how important is to get 20/20 of them all?

Grace adds base evasion (like gear does), so you have to apply all those increases from dexterity and passives, which will give you 20k.

I'd say 21/0 is better than 20/20.

Yes its important to get 20/20 of most gems in your Barrage/LA chain. Most gems there (Pierce, Added Chaos, Slower Projectiles, Void Manipulation, Barrage) will give you 10% increased damage. Increased Critical strikes will give more crit chance with quality. So all 20% quality gems in 6L barrage setup will give 50% increased damage and more crit.

Actually the build is pure garbage. Any other can get you as far as this one, without spending 10ex+ on specific 6L gear. If you still haven't gone that path, dont start this build

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AgentDunham wrote:

@Thaya@emaster
Thank you for your answers boys.
You are indeed correct, I've forgot about grace. Although it's still just 16648 on OP's setup. Dunno if he just doesn't care for more, or I'm still doing some miscalculation.

So queen is only worth getting as long is I know I'll be sitting on a evasion close to 20k.

Ok, I see if I get high rolls on +%chaos on rings/amu it'll make a difference, but 20q chaos gem is just additional 10% too ALL multipliers, right? Can't be that big of a difference. I mean sure if I'm rich as fuck, why not. But making it a priority? So if I get to choose, 21/0 or 20/20? Because 21/20 was like 2.5ex (best deal). OP says he just leveled 6 of them and vaaled, but damn, it's 339,855,551xp which is actually 3,398,555,510 considering earning 10% of xp.

Also it is important to get 21 of other spells? Like barrage/lighting + supports? And how important is to get 20/20 of them all?

21/20 on Added Chaos Damage is important because of the way the Added Chaos Damage gem levels. Each level is a significantly higher flat damage amount - similar to a spell. However, for the rest of our attack-based gems, level 21 isn't nearly as important as it's only a percentage or two higher damage.

For example, at level 20, Barrage does 61.4% of base attack damage. At level 21, it does 62%. Is this worth it? Well, you can decide for yourself, but the market seems to say probably not: a 21/20 Barrage gem goes for 1ex. The same goes for Lightning Arrow and all of our support gems. I would classify this as purely a luxury.

For stuff like this, the Wiki is your best friend.

• Barrage
• Lightning Arrow
• Slower Projectiles
• Pierce
• Void Manipulation
• Increased Critical Strikes - the increased flat critical strike chance probably makes this one the next best after ACD
• Added Chaos Damage

As for 20% quality, it's important on all of our support gems because it gives +%Projectile Damage or +%Chaos Damage (with the exception of ICS, which is just more crit, which is still nice to have), which are one of the few damage modifiers we can take advantage of that double-dip and apply to both the initial hit and the resulting poison damage. See the "Damage" section here.

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emaster wrote:

Not sure its true that physical does not double dip. Quote from wiki:

The base damage per second dealt by a given application of poison equals 8% of the combined physical and chaos damage dealt by the hit which applied that particular instance of poison

That's true, flat physical does increase the resulting poison damage because it increases the initial hit. But that only applies then at an 8% clip. It's more effective to stack the double-dipping +%Damage modifiers because they apply to the total damage applied by the initial hit (which then increases the base poison damage), and then also the resulting base poison damage.

For an extremely simple example, say we do 100 base physical damage. We will then do 8 poison damage on top of that, for a total of 108.

If you add 10 flat physical, the resulting damage is 110 base and 8.8 poison, so 118.8 total.

However, if you get a +10% damage modifier instead, the base damage is still 110. But our poison damage scales higher, due to the double-dipping. It's 8% of the initial hit (8.8), then that amount gets increased by 10% as well, to 9.68. Therefore total damage is 119.68 - higher than if you added just 10 flat physical. With much higher numbers, this can be a significant amount.

Hopefully this helps. The OP has a similar calculation laid out in the first post.

@CadmiumFlow
I always wondered how just 8% poison damage is making so much difference. Now I've read again the OP's poison damage explanation, but this type actually paying attention. My god, the multipliers apply all over again during poison, and on top of that Toxic Delivery is multiplicative with crit mult, which is INSANE. I'm surprised it wasn't nerfed lol. Silly me.

If I might ask, when is an efficient time during gearing process to invest currency into upgrading skill gems to 20/20 (except chaos gems, as I understand getting them to 21/20 has very high priority). Or do you rather suggest double leveling them? But to me it seems kinda insane considering you need to level them to 20, upgrade, again from 1 to 20, and counting all support gems, that's quite an amount.

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AgentDunham wrote:

@CadmiumFlow
I always wondered how just 8% poison damage is making so much difference. Now I've read again the OP's poison damage explanation, but this type actually paying attention. My god, the multipliers apply all over again during poison, and on top of that Toxic Delivery is multiplicative with crit mult, which is INSANE. I'm surprised it wasn't nerfed lol. Silly me.

If I might ask, when is an efficient time during gearing process to invest currency into upgrading skill gems to 20/20 (except chaos gems, as I understand getting them to 21/20 has very high priority). Or do you rather suggest double leveling them? But to me it seems kinda insane considering you need to level them to 20, upgrade, again from 1 to 20, and counting all support gems, that's quite an amount.

I just bought them with 13%+ quality as soon as I had currency for that (so at level 50 or so), then replaced what I had with quality lvl 1 gems, levelled them to 20 and (later, whenever you want) got quality to 20 with GCP.

hit 88 on BHC. could not do overgrown ruins map with vuln mod, bosses were shredding me. payed 200c for reach of the council, spend my last remaining 20c on 10 snakebites in desperate mode trying to get the vuln curse mod, but failed.

Map clearing was certainly fun up to T14ish thanks to clear speed and the ability to kill bosses before they hit me
but then again I've been dying way too easily to random one shots from time to time
Guess its my lack of dodging macros , and I only have 5.2k hp,
I've also failed to kill multiple guardians because I literally do no damage even with full frenzy charges for some reason

I really had fun for the last few days but I havent been able to manage this build correctly and will be moving on
But thanks for the build and GL

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AgentDunham wrote:

@CadmiumFlow
I always wondered how just 8% poison damage is making so much difference. Now I've read again the OP's poison damage explanation, but this type actually paying attention. My god, the multipliers apply all over again during poison, and on top of that Toxic Delivery is multiplicative with crit mult, which is INSANE. I'm surprised it wasn't nerfed lol. Silly me.

If I might ask, when is an efficient time during gearing process to invest currency into upgrading skill gems to 20/20 (except chaos gems, as I understand getting them to 21/20 has very high priority). Or do you rather suggest double leveling them? But to me it seems kinda insane considering you need to level them to 20, upgrade, again from 1 to 20, and counting all support gems, that's quite an amount.

What you just acknowledged is the reason Poison is the meta right now. If you think this is insane, check how Blade Flurry functions. They get a huge double dipping 'more' damage built into the skill itself.

Regarding gems, if your own set is close to 20, just recipe it for 20quality and re-level (vendor the gem and a gcp), Vaal your Lightning Arrow (cuz the quality is useless on it so you might as well yolo for a 21 already). I'm doing my, like, 5th set this league, and I just buy the 20q gems as I have the currency to spare.

Oh and I did vendor my first set for the 20q + relevel. That was way earlier in the league though and the problem back then was availability (and my budget), but yeah, this is a common thing to do.

This is currently what im running(got a friend to lend me his reach) but I'm not really killing bosses that quickly. Also are the health nodes on the left side of the tree where im going to get 6k life with the only life i have in my equipment being my accesories and boots? Here's a link to my skill tree incase i might have screwed up somewhere there. hope someone can help me.

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AgentDunham wrote:

@Thaya@emaster
Thank you for your answers boys.
You are indeed correct, I've forgot about grace. Although it's still just 16648 on OP's setup. Dunno if he just doesn't care for more, or I'm still doing some miscalculation.
Edit: Actually if the grace is added before multipliers, it will give an insane 25,330 evasion. So I suppose that must be it :).

So queen is only worth getting as long is I know I'll be sitting on a evasion close to 20k.

Ok, I see if I get high rolls on +%chaos on rings/amu it'll make a difference, but 20q chaos gem is just additional 10% too ALL multipliers, right? Can't be that big of a difference. I mean sure if I'm rich as fuck, why not. But making it a priority? So if I get to choose, 21/0 or 20/20? Because 21/20 was like 2.5ex (best deal). OP says he just leveled 6 of them and vaaled, but damn, it's 339,855,551xp which is actually 3,398,555,510 considering earning 10% of xp.

Also it is important to get 21 of other spells? Like barrage/lighting + supports? And how important is to get 20/20 of them all?

I use this build since league start for leveling, yeah I'm somehow stupid) I do use QotF and grace as soon as possible, like about 8-11k evasion.
It seems slow, but it's very good boost due to flask. Stibnite+jade+quicksilver with correct suffix, it's insane speed from early game. I'm using surgeon so flask change is always there.

I'm currently sitting with 19k+ evasion at hideout, 88-90% movement speed, when flasked it's 188%-220% (depends on flask setup)

I leveling 5 added chaos, 3 of them still 19/20, 2 of them is corrupted 20/20, wish me luck. 21/20 is alot better then 21/0 imo. I lvl and vaaled other gems at20/20, and stop there (got 2-3 21/20) but I wouldn't lvl it again unless have free slot. (Except lightning arrow Vaal at 20/0)