Please consider this alternate nerf to Frost Wall

"

acme_myst wrote:

Frenzy has lvl 21 damage effectiveness of 138%. Since the three damage supports you chose above are optimal for your build, you'll use the same supports for your 4L Frenzy. Your single target skill thus has a damage effectiveness of 1.38*X.

So, your single-target skill does (1.38*X)/(1.3209*X) - 1 ~= 4.5% more damage than your 6L KB, plus whatever drop-in-the-bucket %damage scaling and %aps frenzy gives mechanically. This 4.5% means you technically do higher DPS, but it's not worth sacrificing a 4L for.

Try again.

How about you first do some honest investigation on how frenzy and quality frenzy operates and then come back to me.

"drop in the bucket boost from whatever frenzy gives you"

LuL.

Peace,

-Boem-

God forbid a build that 1 shots the entire screen has to suffer at single target.

I am glad that wanders have an actual drawback to their playstyle. If you can't be bothered to swap out gems for a boss because it "slows you down" then it's on you.

Bow builds used to swap out their gems to blast rain for single target or use a weapon swap for such purpose before the frost wall abuse became meta. Players that use Increased AoE swap it out for concentrated effect on tough bosses also.

Just swap out your GMP for Barrage and your KB for increased crit damage / added lightning or something else, not rocket science.

well.. first of all 6link KB is overkill. i once played ranged attack totem with kb and it was enough in a 4 link to clear pretty much anything

and if that is the case (i believe it is) then you have a 5 link single target and 5 link aoe in one 6link chest (or 7link if you happen to offcolour Lioneyes chest)

what i read here is mostly unreasonable demands for power. KB has much better aoe clear speed than.. mostly anything? it is just too strong. it creates false benchmark that you use to compare stuff. take essence drain or any melee class and compare it to your KB setup. these are way slower not because these builds are bad. it is because your build uses an overtuned skill

set your benchmark right and if then your single target sucks - complain. but currently you brought a gun to a knife fight and demand a machinegun.

btw barrage with volley fire is a pretty decent clear speed for bows. wonder how it works for wanders. and this is an universal setup

"

Boem wrote:

How about you first do some honest investigation on how frenzy and quality frenzy operates and then come back to me.

"drop in the bucket boost from whatever frenzy gives you"

LuL.

Peace,

-Boem-

What's there to investigate? Quality on Frenzy gives 10% IAS at 20%, which is the same as what KB gets from quality GMP.

Frenzy then gets "5% increased Physical Damage per Frenzy Charge", and "5% increased Attack Speed per Frenzy Charge". Together with the inherent boni from Frenzy charges themselves, this gives 5% ipd, 9% ias, and 4% More damage per frenzy charge.

On a build that already scales %increased damage to some 400%+ from the tree and gear, that 5% ipd/charge is, indeed, a drop in the bucket.

Even if you go out of your way to get +3 FC from tree and a +1 corruption on boots, that's 7*4=28% More damage at full charges, along with 7*9=63% ias.

Great. Now you have a damage/hit effectiveness on Frenzy of 1.38*1.28, which is 33% more damage than your 6L KB. Even assuming you're 100% phys damage (wanders aren't), the additional %ipd scales the total %increased from ~400 to ~450, to make your Frenzy do a total of around 50% more damage then KB. The aps is a bit difficult to quantify, because it really depends on other gear and tree investments. Let's be generous and suppose you have no other sources of ias: another 1.62 multiplier.

Frenzy now does 1.5*1.62 = 2.43 times the damage of your 6L KB.

All of these are very favourable assumptions for your suggestion, and require heavy investment; assuming a pure phys build with no ias scaling, you slightly better than halve the duration of bossfights, at the cost of a 4L, stretching all over the tree to get +3 FC, and getting +1 FC corrupt on boots. All of this, I should mention, assumes that none of the KB explosions land on the boss.

How does this sound worth it to you?

"

Mannoth wrote:

Bow builds used to swap out their gems to blast rain for single target or use a weapon swap for such purpose before the frost wall abuse became meta.

Why didn't they just use the second 6L they had access to (in contrast to wanders, who don't get that option)?

"

Mannoth wrote:

Just swap out your GMP for Barrage and your KB for increased crit damage / added lightning or something else, not rocket science.

Wow, that's an amazing idea, thanks. Not like I've been saying that for the duration of this thread or anything. Way to miss the point.

"

sidtherat wrote:

what i read here is mostly unreasonable demands for power. KB has much better aoe clear speed than.. mostly anything? it is just too strong. [....] take essence drain or any melee class and compare it to your KB setup. these are way slower not because these builds are bad. it is because your build uses an overtuned skill

set your benchmark right and if then your single target sucks - complain. but currently you brought a gun to a knife fight and demand a machinegun.

btw barrage with volley fire is a pretty decent clear speed for bows. wonder how it works for wanders. and this is an universal setup

Another red herring, could you please actually address the issue under discussion rather than repeatedly digress into KB's AoE potential or the comparison to melee?

"

sidtherat wrote:

it creates false benchmark that you use to compare stuff

Not for single target it doesn't. KB's AoE functionality has absolutely zero bearing on its single-target capacity, which is what I'm using it as a reference point for. In that context it's a vanilla 148% damage effectiveness gem that does nothing special. It's in no way a false benchmark.

"

sidtherat wrote:

well.. first of all 6link KB is overkill. i once played ranged attack totem with kb and it was enough in a 4 link to clear pretty much anything

and if that is the case (i believe it is) then you have a 5 link single target and 5 link aoe in one 6link chest (or 7link if you happen to offcolour Lioneyes chest)

This is actually a good point, and an option I'm considering for my own build as well. Running 2x5L might be the cleanest solution, especially since GMP these days functions as a 50% more multiplier for Barrage.

Considering I have about 300% DPS overcap to oneshot most/all trash in the game, the loss of a single link shouldn't hurt me that much. Then again, I'm running around in some pretty stupid 500+ exalt worth of gear. This option might not actually pan out very well for lower-budget builds, since those typically used KB+FW interaction as a crutch. Then again it might, who knows.


I still maintain that a dedicated single-target skill that wanders can use would be the best solution, and non-piercable Frost Wall provides that with minimal effort on GGG's part. The other currently available options do not provide the required powerlevel to make their integration into a build worth it, without artificially decreasing link-pressure by digging into the inventory space. Bear in mind that bosses have to be balanced while taking into account bow users, which have both higher weapon damage and a dedicated 5L/6L for single target. Somehow people seem to think that a lower-damage weapon on a 4L single-target skill can function on-par with that, which makes no sense.

Killing a boss 2.4 times faster, which usually is the hardest content the game throws at you is not worth it.

As far as i know, wander KB doesn't scale IAS, cause a single attacks blows up the entire screen anyway, making it a wasted investment.

Your not asking for alternatives or solutions to your problem, you simply want to steamroll all the content without any effort.
And preferably GGG should cater to your wish irrelevant of the impact on the game as a whole.

Only fools would think that the abuse frost wall provided was going to stay indefinitely and that their build was a success and optimized if it needed that abuse to cheese certain content of the game.

Which is why some people actually didn't use the abuse of frostwall and already optimized their build without that in mind.

Your behind on them now, so get theory-crafting and weighting out alternate options rather then asking for a cheese to suit your needs, which is just selfish.

I simply provided you with one of the strongest single target 4-links the game offers wanderers, nothing more nothing less. If you use it is up to you obviously.

KB is fucking glorious when it comes to ranged AOE clearing skills/capability's it doesn't need a cherry
on-top.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

Killing a boss 2.4 times faster, which usually is the hardest content the game throws at you is not worth it.

It's not, because 2.4 times faster than a really long time is still... well, a really long time.

That number was also derived from some very favourable assumptions, and requires a heavy investment from both tree and links. This investment necessarily cuts into either defense or offensive, meaning either the 2.4 number is actually even more optimistic, or whatever time remains is now more dangerous.

"

Boem wrote:

As far as i know, wander KB doesn't scale IAS, cause a single attacks blows up the entire screen anyway, making it a wasted investment.

We do, albeit not to absurd levels. IAS makes gameplay smoother by decreasing the duration of the attack animation, and thereby the time before you can start moving again. Bit of a tangential point though.

"

Boem wrote:

Your not asking for alternatives or solutions to your problem, you simply want to steamroll all the content without any effort.
And preferably GGG should cater to your wish irrelevant of the impact on the game as a whole.

Only fools would think that the abuse frost wall provided was going to stay indefinitely and that their build was a success and optimized if it needed that abuse to cheese certain content of the game.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can say this. I'm not arguing to keep the broken KB+FW interaction.

"

Boem wrote:

Which is why some people actually didn't use the abuse of frostwall and already optimized their build without that in mind.

Your behind on them now, so get theory-crafting and weighting out alternate options rather then asking for a cheese to suit your needs, which is just selfish.

I simply provided you with one of the strongest single target 4-links the game offers wanderers, nothing more nothing less. If you use it is up to you obviously.

Yes, and I pointed out that the option you provided has roughly the same boss-killing potential as the 4L Barrage I discussed previously. The trade-off is that your option obviates the need to be in shotgun range, in exchange for a much larger investment on the passive tree. It's still not worth it.

"

Boem wrote:

KB is fucking glorious when it comes to ranged AOE clearing skills

Yes it is :)

"

Boem wrote:

it doesn't need a cherry on-top.

I beg to differ. More to the point, it already has that cherry, it's just that it's in your inventory rather than your main gear setup, and you need to take it out and put it away every time you encounter a boss without environmental walls nearby. There's no balance problem here---at least not one that's introduced or removed by the introduction/removal of non-piercable FW or a new dedicated single-target skill---there is a QoL problem, and I'm arguing for fixing it.

I like how you only quoted parts of my reply and pulled them out of the whole context of my reply.

If you can't be bothered to swap out gems for better single target at the boss that is your problem.

Should I make a thread and ask GGG to triple the damage of single target melee skills so that they can be competitive in a 4L vs a 6L AoE setup?

KB is a league of it's own when it comes to AoE damage and clear speed, it doesn't need a single target because that would mean any new skill they introduce after for wands will have to be vastly better on both fronts (AoE and single target) in order to be picked over KB.

4l single target you cant kill t13-t14 boss with it
imagine if you use life leech in it for reflect maps, you can't even kill dominus in residence

wands lack in skill gems kinetic was the ONLY choice, frost wall fix, totally kills wanders.

there are so many skill gems that are a MUST, vaal haste, vaal discipline and phase run are a MUST for wander, so you don't have room for a 4L single target

ALL the builds run with only ONE attack/skill gems, only bows which have 2*6L can use 2 different attack gems, but 99% of all the build only use 1 skill gem for everything

if you remove all the usefull gems, better to change build then



i've played KB and LA frost wall for the past year, but i've allready changed back to flicker strike

I've never played a Wander and am just thinking of trying that out sometime, soI really don't have clue. But, reading this, I wondered: why isnt Power Siphon a good single target?
Doesn't it have a lot of dmg effectinveness and a built in cull?