Please consider this alternate nerf to Frost Wall

from what you say it is easy to spot several problems at once:

1) wanders == KB. KB dominated wander scene and there are very few builds using something else
2) greedy players. when theyve realized that KB + FW solves BOTH single and multi target situations they quickly assumed that it is a NORM to be able to clear maps faster than anything else AND have the best single target in the game. greedy players wont let that power go away easily
3) KB in itself is a better single target than single-target options. this is an elephant in the room. something we all knew since the first day this bulls.. KB got released. but the excuse was 'wanders are the most expensive builds out there, they are powerful for a reason'. people were stupid and believed this crap. it was and still is a lie - wander is not more expensive than other build archetypes and the power of CHEEZE KB + FW provided meant it wasnt really starved by a weapon as any crap + auras could do. phys wanders were ofc very expensive but.. totally unnecessary.
4) lazy players. players that got so conditioned to a) free power b) single/multi solutions in one setup c) easy one click gameplay with once in a while FW cast. try to tell someone who has been mostly resting for last few years that today is a new reality and you have to work. just like everyone else.

in summary: it is not the single target options that are bad. it is the KB that is WAY TOO STRONG even without the CHEZE. KB should have 40% damage reduction and/or NOT PROC explosions when piercing AT ALL. fireball does not explode on pierce, why KB does?

"

in summary: it is not the single target options that are bad. it is the KB that is WAY TOO STRONG even without the CHEZE. KB should have 40% damage reduction and/or NOT PROC explosions when piercing AT ALL. fireball does not explode on pierce, why KB does?

Well Fireball is basically the melee of spells... it is there, it gets buffed but people will still use Bladefall.

Just use weapon swap and glacial hammer bro.

It got buffed, i don't know what your on about.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

acme_myst wrote:

"

Wiesl_1404 wrote:

There is Barrage and even Power Siphon for Wander single target. Barrage has great burst potential and Power Siphon has a build in culling strike if you like.

the 4l players sacrificed for their frost wall setup can now be used for Barrage/Power Siphon.

I don't see any problem, single target for wanders is fine.

"

Miazga wrote:

exactly.

I use to run a 4L power siphon for single target. Dont forget you can corrupt your gloves for something nice (if u lucky) to get even more power out of that.

That's great.

However, as mentioned above, neither of those skills, when put in a 4L, can out-DPS a 6L KB. Look up the damage effectiveness on those gems, look up the multipliers on the best supports, and run the math.

It's simple. You need a 5L+ to make a second skill useful as single-target, since a 4L would be on-par with just using your main 6L KB, meaning it's a wasted 4L. Since wanders can't have that second 5L+ due to link constraints, this means you have to gem/chest swap. This is an annoyance that doesn't add balance to the game. Making FW non-piercable grants that QoL feature without being unbalanced.

So, what are you guys arguing against, exactly?

a 4 link single target power siphon, barrage or frenzy can destroy bosses. If you think your main kb does more damage, fine, you dont have a problem that needs solved surely?

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

a 4 link single target power siphon, barrage or frenzy can destroy bosses. If you think your main kb does more damage, fine, you dont have a problem that needs solved surely?

Mostly, no, I don't. To be clear, I'm talking corrupted 8 mod T14+'s here, where a 4L just isn't going to cut it.

And, yes, I can just gem/chest swap for those fights. And no, that's not difficult. I'm just advocating a way to not necessitate changing my gear before each bossfight, which does nothing but be annoying. It also happens to be thematically sensible, but I'll admit that's mostly coincidental.

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sidtherat wrote:

from what you say it is easy to spot several problems at once:

Sure, I'll bite.

"

sidtherat wrote:

1) wanders == KB. KB dominated wander scene and there are very few builds using something else

This is a red herring. While you're correct, and I'd be all for rebalancing and diversifying the skills that wanders can viably use, this is (a) much more complex than what I'm suggesting here, and (b) completely outside the scope of this discussion.

"

sidtherat wrote:

2) greedy players. when theyve realized that KB + FW solves BOTH single and multi target situations they quickly assumed that it is a NORM to be able to clear maps faster than anything else AND have the best single target in the game. greedy players wont let that power go away easily

Another red herring. I'll be the first to admit that KB+FW was broken, but this discussion isn't about keeping that insane single target.

"

sidtherat wrote:

3) KB in itself is a better single target than single-target options. this is an elephant in the room. something we all knew since the first day this bulls.. KB got released.

This has some merit. It isn't the best single-target skill (without the FW interaction), but it is difficult to outscale given the links that we have. Admittedly, even non-piercable FW was/would be a hack, which grew out of the above link-starvation and lack of more powerful single-target options.

In an ideal world, I'd love to see a wander equivalent of Blast Rain; a dedicated single-target skill that can't be turned into AoE by linking GMP, and that can therefore be balanced as such (in contrast to Barrage, Power Siphon, and Frenzy).

However, that would be a complex fix with substantive effort on GGG's part. Making FW non-piercable is quick&dirty, but effective&cheap.

"

sidtherat wrote:

but the excuse was 'wanders are the most expensive builds out there, they are powerful for a reason'. people were stupid and believed this crap. it was and still is a lie - wander is not more expensive than other build archetypes and the power of CHEEZE KB + FW provided meant it wasnt really starved by a weapon as any crap + auras could do. phys wanders were ofc very expensive but.. totally unnecessary.

This is... some tangential rant that doesn't really have anything to do with your point (3)?

"

sidtherat wrote:

4) lazy players. players that got so conditioned to a) free power b) single/multi solutions in one setup c) easy one click gameplay with once in a while FW cast. try to tell someone who has been mostly resting for last few years that today is a new reality and you have to work. just like everyone else.

I'm trying not to read this as an ad hominem. Could you explain how "easy one click gameplay with once in a while [single target skill]" differs in lazyness to "easy one click gameplay with once in a while FW cast"?

"

sidtherat wrote:

in summary: it is not the single target options that are bad. it is the KB that is WAY TOO STRONG even without the CHEZE. KB should have 40% damage reduction and/or NOT PROC explosions when piercing AT ALL. fireball does not explode on pierce, why KB does?

This doesn't really follow from the above, but, sure. Maybe you're right and KB should have a substantial damage reduction. Maybe it should be completely mechanically reworked to be more in line with, say, Fireball---a prime example of a viable but well-balanced skill, amirite? However, as in points (1) and (2) above, this is completely outside the scope of this discussion.

"Just use a 4L"

LOL

ITT: People who have no clue what they're talking about.

Wanders just need more skills to choose from. Give them a TS type skill. 4 years into this game and we still only have 2 wand skills. And people are only playing KB, even Power Siphon is now a fossil.

Remove Alchemist from Witch and you can then add nice wand skills. Right now GGG is scared because ranged + shield + Alchemist is clearly overpowered.

"

"Just use a 4L"

LOL

ITT: People who have no clue what they're talking about.

pretty much this, the best I have is prob switch maligaro for my thunderfist on my ele wander
5l op.

"

"Just use a 4L"

LOL

ITT: People who have no clue what they're talking about.

But your already using a 4-link?

KB + gmp or lmp + pierce = 4-link if we remove the mass AOE providing components. To be fair your actually cutting your 4-link dps down with the less multiplier of lmp or gmp.

A 4-link frenzy will do higher dps then your KB on single targets.

'-.-

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

"

"Just use a 4L"

LOL

ITT: People who have no clue what they're talking about.

But your already using a 4-link?

KB + gmp or lmp + pierce = 4-link if we remove the mass AOE providing components. To be fair your actually cutting your 4-link dps down with the less multiplier of lmp or gmp.

A 4-link frenzy will do higher dps then your KB on single targets.

'-.-

Peace,

-Boem-

GMP has a 25% Less multiplier, Pierce (post-nerf) has a 19% More multiplier. Together, this gives a 0.8925 multiplier to KB. KB has a lvl 21 damage effctiveness of 148%, meaning that you're left with 148 * 0.8925 = 132.09 damage effectiveness. The last three links are whatever damage supports are optimal for your build; take your pick from WED/PPAD/FA/ICD/ALD/SP/whatever. Call the total multiplier from those gems X. Your 6L KB now has a total damage effectiveness of 1.3209*X.

Frenzy has lvl 21 damage effectiveness of 138%. Since the three damage supports you chose above are optimal for your build, you'll use the same supports for your 4L Frenzy. Your single target skill thus has a damage effectiveness of 1.38*X.

So, your single-target skill does (1.38*X)/(1.3209*X) - 1 ~= 4.5% more damage than your 6L KB, plus whatever drop-in-the-bucket %damage scaling and %aps frenzy gives mechanically. This 4.5% means you technically do higher DPS, but it's not worth sacrificing a 4L for.

Try again.


Hint: I think Barrage+GMP+WED+Slower Projectiles is likely optimal. This gives a lvl 21 damage effectiveness of 0.62*0.75*1.29*WED*8 = 4.7988*WED, where the last term can't be multiplied out because it depends on your phys/ele ratio. The 6L KB would be KB+GMP+Pierce+WED+Slower Projectiles+[something], working out to 1.3209*1.29*WED*[something] ~= 1.7*WED*[something]. Since the [something]-multiplier is likely bounded above by ~1.3, you get 2.2*WED, meaning that the 4L Barrage setup does around twice the damage when in shotgun range.

This option reduces the duration of the bossfight by half, but is problematic because you're forced to spend that duration within shotgun/getting-1-shot range. Even ignoring that risk, halving the duration of the fight may or may not be worth the wasted 4L, since it'll likely still be too long to open you up to mechanical errors. Ideally, you'd want an order of magnitude improvement over your 6L KB, and you simply need a separate 6L to pull that off.