Counterintuitive to the current clear speed meta: Slow the Game Back Down

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allbusiness wrote:

Most slow paced action games are horrible.


There are games that are real time but tactical. We call those more in like with tactical games more then anything. For example, I would never call the ArmA series an action game, even though it's a FPS. CoD on the other hand? For sure.

That is kind of the point of my view and what others have added. the game needs to be slowed down (with bosses in particular) just enough to actually add tactics. As it is now, everyone running a meta build will probably steamroll over every new boss without learning a single new mechanic of the bosses.

I mean look at the Dunes and Spider Forest Boss. When was the last time he actually managed to pull out his sword and get his health back for most people let alone leap slam and cause chaos damage zombies?

I would rather focus on problem of "meta builds". People instead of playing the game for fun and making their own unique builds, just copy paste meta builds because they are OP. There should be penalty for that in game or some reward for people that dont go into meta builds with are much slower in clear speed.

In other thread I proposed a system that analyze your data, so clear speed, death count, dmg taken, dmg output, how many monsters you clear in the map and so on. Based on that it should set the corresponding map and mods you were using on "challange tier" for you.

SO if you play meta build that is just broken you will get low challange tier, where people with weaker builds will get higher challanger tier on the same maps with similar mods. Some specific builds will get really high challange tier for things that they strugle with, like RT with no-life regen map mod.

The higher the challanger tier you take on, the higher the exp and drop rate on those map is. Non-meta builds will simply get similar rewards to meta builds to encourage players to actualy play the games biggest sell point, so creating own build.

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raics wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

There is a spike trap. There is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

It just looks impossible, what you need is sonar for your bat form which can be found in Olrox's Quarters. Once you have that, it's a simple matter to navigate the spikes and get the Spike Breaker armor, no spikes will stop you then.

I love SotN. ;)

As far as pacing goes, it's based off human reaction times... which is more science than art, but also more individual than general. You can study the various forms of human response time and measure, in a general sense, how long a "turn" is in a live-action setting, but that will give you a wide range of responses, not one tailored to the player. If you design for the elite you make a game so fast it's unfairly unintelligible to the slower responders; vice versa, and the elite find your combat to be a snoozer.

Unless you can find a way to tailor the game to each individual player's response times.

The way I see it and described earlier in this thread, this is the unique advantage of ARPGs over other action games. The loot hunt motivates players to operate at the fastest clearspeed they can; the "RPG" elements (gear/passives/skills) allow the player to self-tailor a character for the fastest speed they can handle, using defensive mechanics to shrug off enemy moves beyond their response time but sacrificing offense to do so. Basically, it's Choose Your Own Pacing.

Ideally, you'd end up with game so tailored to each player that the slow reaction timers think defense is OP, the fast reaction timers think glass is OP, and you'd have both sides calling to nerf the other simultaneously.

Because that's what balance looks like on the internet now.

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herflik wrote:

I would rather focus on problem of "meta builds". People instead of playing the game for fun and making their own unique builds, just copy paste meta builds because they are OP. There should be penalty for that in game or some reward for people that dont go into meta builds with are much slower in clear speed.

In other thread I proposed a system that analyze your data, so clear speed, death count, dmg taken, dmg output, how many monsters you clear in the map and so on. Based on that it should set the corresponding map and mods you were using on "challange tier" for you.

SO if you play meta build that is just broken you will get low challange tier, where people with weaker builds will get higher challanger tier on the same maps with similar mods. Some specific builds will get really high challange tier for things that they strugle with, like RT with no-life regen map mod.

The higher the challanger tier you take on, the higher the exp and drop rate on those map is. Non-meta builds will simply get similar rewards to meta builds to encourage players to actualy play the games biggest sell point, so creating own build.

This is a terrible idea. Some players like making builds, and some players don't. I don't even consider "builds" and "leveling/mapping" to be the same game; they're separate yet connected games with different target audiences. Those copycats you mention often have no interest in theorycrafting, so they don't. Forcing everyone to make their own builds isn't fun, it's sadism.

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Prisus wrote:

You want to slow the game down? Then raise drop rates (yeah I know...crazy right?)

these arent really related. what do they have to do withe each other ?

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allbusiness wrote:

Most slow paced action games are horrible.

sorry, this is a generic blanket statement.

a lot of slow-paced action games are considered some of the best games ever made

system shock, deus ex, half life, no one lives forever are routinely found in any respected FPS lovers' top 5.

games like s.t.a.l.k.e.r. and metro are/were generally very well received

really, lots of action games that dont have fast pace are awesome . please, don't generalize, as its extremely easy to say things that arent true at all.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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herflik wrote:

I would rather focus on problem of "meta builds". People instead of playing the game for fun and making their own unique builds, just copy paste meta builds because they are OP. There should be penalty for that in game or some reward for people that dont go into meta builds with are much slower in clear speed.

In other thread I proposed a system that analyze your data, so clear speed, death count, dmg taken, dmg output, how many monsters you clear in the map and so on. Based on that it should set the corresponding map and mods you were using on "challange tier" for you.

SO if you play meta build that is just broken you will get low challange tier, where people with weaker builds will get higher challanger tier on the same maps with similar mods. Some specific builds will get really high challange tier for things that they strugle with, like RT with no-life regen map mod.

The higher the challanger tier you take on, the higher the exp and drop rate on those map is. Non-meta builds will simply get similar rewards to meta builds to encourage players to actualy play the games biggest sell point, so creating own build.

This is a terrible idea. Some players like making builds, and some players don't. I don't even consider "builds" and "leveling/mapping" to be the same game; they're separate yet connected games with different target audiences. Those copycats you mention often have no interest in theorycrafting, so they don't. Forcing everyone to make their own builds isn't fun, it's sadism.

The other thing about meta focus is that games like this people always gravitate to whatever is vastly OP. If GGG would do some major rebalancing and got builds to an even playing ground through tactics and such being introduced/flat major rebalancing of the lowest tier of skills or remove them if they aren't considered worth updating anymore (devouring totem, elemental hit, etc) then you have more variety not because meta is punished (it shouldn't be) but instead diversity is finally allowed on a close to even playing field and meta builds are just enough OP to not get hate for being vastly more OP than all else.

It would be nice to know that if I go in next league starting with a dual wield cleave, my build's ability to tackle and clear maps is within reasonable similarity to somebody doing an earthquake build, assuming EQ stays meta. No they do not need to be neck and neck 4 minutes and a few seconds to clear the exact same map but if people opt to go non meta, don't let meta leave them in the dust in every aspect, offense, defense, etc. I am aware that skill of the game is involved. I am not expecting a new player to keep a dual wield cleave character within a reasonable efficiency to a streamer EQ.

From what I believe, boss tactical fights can sort of help this. Sure the meta build will kill the boss quicker and safer, but I don't want to be sitting there smacking away at the very same boss thinking "boy I really wish I would have went metabuild#48245, because this build just does not even compare. Sure it gets the job done but all the meta builds finished the challenge league challenges 4 weeks ago and I played about as often as them but cleave just doesn't do the same work."

If GGG made it clear that some skills are not meant to be end game viable, so be it, but right now they still subtly tell us to do what we want with an *(but you better choose meta builds if you want to keep up with the community as a whole, and good luck getting challenges done in 3 months on top of theory crafting and playing multiple builds without a meta speed clearer to pick up the slack.)

It is honestly why I have always played based on other people's guides. If I tried to take the time to make my own builds each league I would never have a chance at the final mtx rewards. Why not just run earthquake like I did in perandus and have the game handed to me in a boring manner and then try to enjoy the game afterwards when I'm not in a rush, oh wait, I'm burnt out now because I just played another meta build for the 7th time and don't have the energy to do anything else now because I have real life things to attend to, and back to the loop over and over again.

This essence league I am finally not starting following OP meta and doing another classic summoner and hoping like hell that the bone helmet will let me get the challenges done at a decent pace without feeling like I am no lifing it to get them done.

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Fruz wrote:

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I_NO wrote:

In Grimdawn I can clear it in a heart beat
In D2 I can clear anything in a heart beat
In shitty d3 same thing

Fast pace that's the entire point of an ARPG not this close paced thing you're talking about.

But you did like the game back couple of years ago, right ?
Would you still not like it if it went back to the same kind of pace ?
Still fast-paced, but much less brainless.

we should ask here if she can still clear grim dawn in a 'heart beat' without utilizing resist reduction mechanics, which is perhaps the most op mechanic in the game since OA was nerfed, since it stacks multiplicatively

there is nothing impressive about picking up a game and utilizing most op mechanic and build there is to faceroll content. powergaming sucks an elephant dick imo.

in fact, I hope there is a special hell for powergamers who pick up an RPG and before playing research the most powerful build and choices, not being afraid of spoilers, to get them most xp and make the most 'right' choices, instead of actual, you know, ROLE playing.

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grepman wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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I_NO wrote:

In Grimdawn I can clear it in a heart beat
In D2 I can clear anything in a heart beat
In shitty d3 same thing

Fast pace that's the entire point of an ARPG not this close paced thing you're talking about.

But you did like the game back couple of years ago, right ?
Would you still not like it if it went back to the same kind of pace ?
Still fast-paced, but much less brainless.

we should ask here if she can still clear grim dawn in a 'heart beat' without utilizing resist reduction mechanics, which is perhaps the most op mechanic in the game since OA was nerfed, since it stacks multiplicatively

there is nothing impressive about picking up a game and utilizing most op mechanic and build there is to faceroll content. powergaming sucks an elephant dick imo.

I've done a no resist build full clear all the way to ultimate using a knives assassin build bleed stacking. Can't kill moosegod obviously along with the clone boss with it but it is perfectly do-able.