Evasion is cancer

Well, that wasn't the point. If you notice, the guy almost isn't hit. The video was just for the lols too, still can't see sense in comparing evasion with block, they're not in the same layer and if you compare block/dodge, effectiveness is as seen in the video.

I think he's using block. Nevertheless. He couldn't survive today AFK.

It is in his build thread(or the comments) he is using dodge. I read this sometime ago, you can check, though. I know because i tried to copy that(dodge+saffells), but gave up and went full block for the dual wield.

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That's not the point. The point is that mitigation without evasion is still very viable, while evasion without mitigation is an RNG death wish.

Sure, evasion can be very nice icing on the cake that is mitigation. But you gotta have the cake before you can put the icing on, and frankly, the cake is pretty good without the icing anyway.

Ok, but by your logic you would expect armour champions to die less than dodge evasion champions. This is not the case in my experience. In fact most evasion/dodge characters that I've played actually die less.

Why?

Well, a dangerous pack might all hit you at once and you die. Where as, a dodge champion has a high likelihood of not even getting hit at all. I don't know how many times I've died on an armour charater, from taking a giant chunk then having a few other weaker mobs finish me off. This is out-weighed on a dodge character by how many times I've taken a chunk from a monster then have other small mobs whiff. This allowed me to pot up or even life steal off said pack.

For the other type of mitigation, energy shield, I personally have had very bad experiences with it. Do you make the distinction between armour and energy shield? I do know that tons of players have had great success with ES builds. ES is just a replacement for life but, most are supported by many of the other forms of mitigation that I've mentioned.

Well why is this?

Well the benefit in ES is that you can actually stack more of it than life (in most cases) but you have less armour. They have to supplement there lack of armour by both using things like fortify and arctic armour plus having 10k+ ES.

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Btw this is not always the case for every build but in general with every type mitigation you have a give and take.


Here's what I want you to try. Go to poe.trade and buy an Enduring Cry with 15+ quality or whatever you can afford. Use it. Get a basalt. If you're a melee champion, link a Fortify Support to one of the movement skills listed. Use them and tell me you don't see the benefits of dodge/evasion.

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maLcious wrote:

Here's what I want you to try. Go to poe.trade and buy an Enduring Cry with 15+ quality or whatever you can afford. Use it. Get a basalt. If you're a melee champion, link a Fortify Support to one of the movement skills listed. Use them and tell me you don't see the benefits of dodge/evasion.

This is exactly what I'm saying. To see the benefit of evasion, you first have to have mitigation.


While we're telling anecdotes: my previous two builds were:
- Trickster with 45% Dodge, 6k armor, 22k evasion (+Shade Form's 20% more chance to evade), and 25% Block from a Rumi's, and 4.3k life. Using an Oro's Sacrifice, so 10% increased phys and fire damage taken (effectively negative mitigation)
- Inquisitor with 12k armor, 35% block, Soul of Steel, no evasion/dodge, 5.1k life

Both builds would leap slam into mobs to get Fortify, hit EC to get up to 3 charges, then go to town with a single target attack + melee splash. Pretty much identical playstyles.

The Inquisitor died a lot less. The extra HP and mitigation more than made up for all the evasion and dodge the Trickster had.


I'm not saying evasion is bad, only that it requires mitigation to be effective due to the prevalence of oneshots and spike damage. Whereas mitigation doesn't require evasion to be effective. Thus the focus of every build is to get mitigation first, and then some evasion/block/dodge with whatever resources are left.

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maLcious wrote:

Here's what I want you to try. Go to poe.trade and buy an Enduring Cry with 15+ quality or whatever you can afford. Use it. Get a basalt. If you're a melee champion, link a Fortify Support to one of the movement skills listed. Use them and tell me you don't see the benefits of dodge/evasion.

Or don't do all those things and just get Rumi + 12k ES and win the game, ez.

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IceDeal wrote:

Forget about evasion, it will never be worth it with entropy system.

Entropy is the only thing that makes evasion usable. I'm really surprised by how many people don't get this.

Two scenarios with 50% evasion, one with entropy and one without:

With entropy: Hit, Miss, Hit, Miss, Hit, Miss

Without entropy: Hit, Hit, Hit, Hit, Hit, Hit

There's a good chance you're dead as hell in the second scenario if you're in a sketchy fight. You may think that's an unfair comparison, since there's only a 1/64 chance of the second scenario happening. How many times do you get into combat in POE, though? You have 1/64 scenarios happening constantly. Scenarios even worse than that happen all the time.

Without entropy, eventually a bad run of RNG will hit and you'll fall over dead. With entropy, a string of bad RNG will never hit. Block doesn't use entropy, which is why sometimes you'll see a max block character just fall over dead when you expect them to be fine. Bad RNG happens. Entropy prevents that.

There's a video that was posted on Reddit a long time ago that I wanted to link to but couldn't find. A guy was in the Hall of Grandmasters. He was playing SRS and was up against an Aegis build. The spirits kept hitting and the grandmaster kept blocking, keeping him at full life and ES. This went on and on and on until suddenly that bad block RNG kicked in and the grandmaster died in a blink.

Entropy's good stuff.

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suszterpatt wrote:

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maLcious wrote:

Here's what I want you to try. Go to poe.trade and buy an Enduring Cry with 15+ quality or whatever you can afford. Use it. Get a basalt. If you're a melee champion, link a Fortify Support to one of the movement skills listed. Use them and tell me you don't see the benefits of dodge/evasion.

This is exactly what I'm saying. To see the benefit of evasion, you first have to have mitigation.


While we're telling anecdotes: my previous two builds were:
- Trickster with 45% Dodge, 6k armor, 22k evasion (+Shade Form's 20% more chance to evade), and 25% Block from a Rumi's, and 4.3k life. Using an Oro's Sacrifice, so 10% increased phys and fire damage taken (effectively negative mitigation)

Why are trying to run a Rumi's on a two handed dodge character? Getting Acrobatics makes Rumi's a waste. It lowers the block chance and the armour. Of course inquisitor is going to be better. Run a basalt. Period. Your evasion and life is also to low. Just because it says in the tool tip 50% evade chance, that is just an estimate and will change from area to area and from mob to mob. This goes for armour as well.

If you're really having such an issue with dodge then just get Iron Reflexes. There now you're an armour character.

Edit:

You have 800+ more health on an Inquisitor and physical mitigation.
Then you build a dodge character, with -800 life and expect a Rumi's, that is countered by acrobatics both ways, in which Rumi's provides mitigation. Block and Armour. Then run an Oro's which increases the amount of physical damage you take. And you're surprised?

I've spent to much time on this thread.

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caboom wrote:

i will take a wild guess and say that eva works better in other games becouse chars dont get 1 shooted on the first hit they fail to evade.

hard counters like phys spells dont help either.

This. There's too much one-shotty nonsense in the game, so 90% of builds can't do it. When you play enough, you eventually figure out that it doesn't matter what kind of damage you want to do, but what kind of defense you're going to use. Once you pick that, there are a good 50 levels worth of nodes that are required for your build to work. In some cases there are also certain uniques.

It's just bad balancing, really, but they have this gimmicky sh** in the game because some builds are legitimately OP, so GGG feels they have to counter-design for those. Hell, even the concept of chaos damage as it relates to ES builds and 'all resist' gear is evidence of this. It's just a cheesy mechanic to stretch out your stat budget and force you into counter-gimmicks to survive. They don't like the idea of pure "glass cannons" being viable, so in the vast majority of cases, they aren't. In most cases, it's not even enough to take some defense. You often need so much that you're hard pressed to fit offensive nodes into your tree.

Pure glass cannon is viable. My first uber toon was doing it with 3800 life and 30K evasion. Called "yolo whirl" look it up... yolo indeed lol...about half the time I'd have to call a tanky clanmate to finish the run haha. Hell half of mathils uber rangers are the same way..he relies on just not getting hit.

Just not HC viable. but certainly end game viable. Glass cannon can be fun. One shot or get one shot :P.

Look this game has options build super tanky and you wont get one shot to pure glass and everything in between. If you take away one shots the vocal minority complains about game gets boring quick as there is no diversity in gearing. Just ALL DPS ALL THE TIME.

If you play HC - sorry - you're pigeon holed into big EHP - it is what it is.