Guns... My opinion what's yours?

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Jennik wrote:

They don't need to hunt to survive.

And you talk about willful ignorance? lol

Regardless of what you believe, there are in fact places around the US where it is necessary to hunt to survive.

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Jennik wrote:

Anyone attempting to defend slavery by appealing to culture or tradition would sound pretty damn stupid, though.

Right, because they are completely different things.

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Shovelcut wrote:

Regardless of what you believe, there are in fact places around the US where it is necessary to hunt to survive.

You have made a claim. Can you now support it with evidence?

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Jennik wrote:

Anyone attempting to defend slavery by appealing to culture or tradition would sound pretty damn stupid, though.

Right, because they are completely different things.

Obviously the things are different, but the ridiculously poor justification is the same in both cases. Do I need to explain to you how analogies work?

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Jennik wrote:

You simply can't tell if something is good or bad, whether we should or should not do it, based on the simple fact that it's currently being done or has a history of being done before. This is trivia, not an argument.

Proof of the fallacy of that logic. Homosexuality was considered "bad" fifty years ago, because of what society had passed along as moral rights and wrongs. Now, there are specific measures in schools to teach that it is not "bad" and society has shifted and far more people would find it acceptable or even good.

Vegetarianism is a good example as well. The entire "meat is murder" ethos wasn't something that the vast majority of people contrived out of their logical introspection. While a person might think it is all their own thinking, they are accepting ideas and arguments from other people. If someone watched a slaughterhouse video for instance, they are taking in the perspective of the person that filmed it. If they worked at the slaughterhouse themselves, then it is their own thought.

The idea that one method of killing an animal for food is more humane (or less evil, depending on perspective) isn't usually based on the direct knowledge of measuring or witnessing an animal's pain. It is usually based off of what others tell us about an animal's suffering. When someone accepts that information, they have accepted a certain amount of truth filtering - even if the conveyer of that information is trying to be completely honest, their imperfect knowledge and perspective may distort the information.

This is proven science. Your morals five months from now may depend on what life experiences you go through. Some people experience a shift to a feeling of wanting to help others after surviving a crisis, while others may become what society would consider evil.

Lastly there's this refutation

In 1961, Yale University psychology professor Stanley Milgram placed an advertisement in the New Haven Register. “We will pay you $4 for one hour of your time,” it read, asking for “500 New Haven men to help us complete a scientific study of memory and learning.”

Only part of that was true. Over the next two years, hundreds of people showed up at Milgram’s lab for a learning and memory study that quickly turned into something else entirely. Under the watch of the experimenter, the volunteer—dubbed “the teacher”—would read out strings of words to his partner, “the learner,” who was hooked up to an electric-shock machine in the other room. Each time the learner made a mistake in repeating the words, the teacher was to deliver a shock of increasing intensity, starting at 15 volts (labeled “slight shock” on the machine) and going all the way up to 450 volts (“Danger: severe shock”). Some people, horrified at what they were being asked to do, stopped the experiment early, defying their supervisor’s urging to go on; others continued up to 450 volts, even as the learner pled for mercy, yelled a warning about his heart condition—and then fell alarmingly silent. In the most well-known variation of the experiment, a full 65 percent of people went all the way.

Guns aren't the problem, human nature is. People don't kill because they have a gun, people kill because they want to kill.

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DalaiLama wrote:

If someone watched a slaughterhouse video for instance, they are taking in the perspective of the person that filmed it. If they worked at the slaughterhouse themselves, then it is their own thought.

Hmm, so you're saying a high murder rate is a result of too many people just being told that a murder is morally wrong, without trying to deduce it themselves? Maybe that's the whole reason behind it, they can't reach the satisfactory conclusion so they decide to... work the slaughterhouse a bit?

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Jennik wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

Regardless of what you believe, there are in fact places around the US where it is necessary to hunt to survive.

You have made a claim. Can you now support it with evidence?

There are tv shows and various documentaries available regarding this. Not everyone lives in urban areas with ways to easily make money and go shopping.

But ya know, willful ignorance and all that...

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Shovelcut wrote:

There are tv shows and various documentaries available regarding this. Not everyone lives in urban areas with ways to easily make money and go shopping.

Better stop with that argument, you're making your own homeland sound impoverished and backward. Or are you saying a bunch of poor third world countries where hunting is exclusively a sport for the wealthy and nobody lives off it are in a better position than you?

Humans manage, we're extremely resourceful, and doubly so when we're hungry. If you're living in a developed country and are still hunting to survive that's because you can, not because you really have to.

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Entropic_Fire wrote:

So America has a huge problem with gun violence while other gun wielding nations don't.

The problem is with violence itself, which many nations have a problem with. Roughly about 90-100 nations have a bigger problem and roughly 90-100 nations have a lesser problem with violence. The exact position will vary depending on the year, and whose statistics you rely on, but the fact is that the US is close to the median in violence per capita.

Now, whether the Us is in the median of developed countries is another matter. Some of that is going to depend on what you consider developed. Brazil and Mexico have some of the largest economies, yet their per capita violence rate far exceeds the US.

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Entropic_Fire wrote:

Based on this post I take it you think that comes down to some defect in child rearing in America?

Whether America's child rearing is better or worse as a whole than others, I can't say. Most of the teachers I am friends with think that there has been a considerable decline in the amount of parenting in general. While not quite feral, many children have not received proper guidance.

As China is a much more tightly controlled society, it will be interesting to see how they handle the "little emporer" phenomenon that should pop up in about 5-10 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Emperor_Syndrome

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Entropic_Fire wrote:

Or you just wanted to flash your psychology credentials?

What? If someone posted a correction on how cast on crit works with traps, I wouldn't assume
they were trying to flask their PoE credentials.

I do think the problem with homicides and guns (at least in the US, I don't have enough direct experience about other countries to say for certain) is largely due to parents who aren't raising their children to be model citizens. There are issues of desperation, but people can resolve that in other ways, if they are given the mental tools to do so.

If you go to any day care and watch a dozen kids, you can tell which ones have problems at home. Some of them are starved for love and attention. Some of them have moved past that stage and have determined that the only person they can rely on is themselves, and that since no one cares about them, they don't need to care about anyone else.

The details vary, but this type of interaction is a common scenario happening in thousands of day cares every day:

Day Care teacher: "Waldo, why did you slap Dora?"
Waldo: "Because I wanted her piece of apple."
Day Care teacher: "But you had your own piece of apple. That one belonged to her."
Waldo - giving blank
Day Care teacher: "Why did you think you could take her piece of apple?"
Waldo: "I wanted it."

These kids don't have to be lost and end up being criminals, or politicians.

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raics wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

There are tv shows and various documentaries available regarding this. Not everyone lives in urban areas with ways to easily make money and go shopping.

Better stop with that argument, you're making your own homeland sound impoverished and backward. Or are you saying a bunch of poor third world countries where hunting is exclusively a sport for the wealthy and nobody lives off it are in a better position than you?

Humans manage, we're extremely resourceful, and doubly so when we're hungry. If you're living in a developed country and are still hunting to survive that's because you can, not because you really have to.

And if you choose to live in these places, you do what is necessary to survive. You can call it a developed country all you want but that doesn't mean every square mile has been incorporated. There are still out of the way small towns/villages that choose to live a certain way.

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Shovelcut wrote:

And if you choose to live in these places, you do what is necessary to survive.

Exactuley - you choose :)

You know, there are times when I'm really sick of everything and there's nothing I'd like more than to give it all a slip and run off to some mountain to trap beavers or something. I pack my jaws of agony, a few good trap supports but then I realize there's too much tying me here and laugh it off, but some don't.

There's a good number of people everywhere that simply never enjoyed company very much and don't mind giving up some of their comforts to get a good measure of peace and quiet. Americans didn't invent mountainmen, you can find them even in the most orderly countries of the world but somehow only american ones absolutely require hunting to survive. I find it strange, that's all.