Why are viper, elemental hit and puncture still skills?

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safety2nd wrote:

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raics wrote:

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safety2nd wrote:

I thought you could get Bleed bows?

No, you can craft bladed melee weapons only, claws, daggers, swords and axes.

You can get Bleed bows with the Tora signature mod.

Try crafting a good weapon that way, not exactly an accessible option.

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safety2nd wrote:

Can you ellaberate on the ranged weapon scaling?

Yeah, it's easy to get a crapload of increased projectile damage with bow builds, also, bow supports have 'more projectile damage' which double dips on bleed.

So, if you had 100% phys damage from shadow part, 200% projectile damage, slow proj and pierce you're scaling bleed at 1100% in total. If we put trap bonuses in there it starts to get really scary.

At the same time the only practical double dipping bonus to stack on melee bleeders is physical damage as generic damage increases are fairly rare. So, you got 100% increased physical and only less duration as a double dipping mod you can use only with Earthquake, that gives you some 340% total scaling, kinda crappy.

Fortunately, all this will go out of the window once they remove double dipping in next patch, we'll probably see some changes to DoT status effects then.

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Fortunately, all this will go out of the window once they remove double dipping in next patch, we'll probably see some changes to DoT status effects then.

Is this 100% confirmed? And if so, do we know if it's double dip removed across the board?

Would be sad for my Fire-based characters, but they were probably much more powerful than they should have been anyways.

Good news for game balance if it is confirmed though! Then maybe I will have a reason to play crit EK instead of Voltaxic poison.

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adghar wrote:

Is this 100% confirmed? And if so, do we know if it's double dip removed across the board?

I expect it will certainly happen, but it isn't confirmed when. Rory mentioned in an interview back then they aren't happy with the current situation but they had no time to do it for Ascendancy, I assume it would require a lot of work to tweak and test properly. Next patch is a balance patch so that would be a good time to do it, unless their ascendancy backlog is really heavy.

From what I understand in the double dip mechanic change is that GGG wants to remove double diping, but in exchange give the power as a "free" for everybody without need of double diping. So nobody will get nerfed, those who couldnt get double dip get buffed.

I dont know why people still diffrentate ranged weapons versus melee weapons. There are melee skills that are basicaly ranged. Also I dont understand why ranged should be penalized in damage terms comparing to melee. This is done in so wrong way.

Ranged should be highest dmg, but squishy, every mistake should cost you alot.
Melee should be tanky on other hand.

Though its POE game flaw that everybody here is actualy squishy. This game doesnt have well fleshed out defensive mechanics so people focus most discussion on offense part of game.

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herflik wrote:

I dont know why people still diffrentate ranged weapons versus melee weapons. There are melee skills that are basicaly ranged. Also I dont understand why ranged should be penalized in damage terms comparing to melee. This is done in so wrong way.

Dunno, probably because a decent bit of fighting for ranged builds goes on in offscreen.

But you're right, because PoE lacks the archetype system all playstyles need to have roughly similar capabilities in dps, coverage and survivability. True, they reach those points in different ways but are indeed similarly capable. Of course, I consider trying for a bit more archetype distinction a lost cause, the game or the playerbase probably couldn't handle it right now, but that's besides the point anyway.

However, I'm all for consistency, if they go for equal capability they should do it properly, having a status effect useless on one playstyle so it wouldn't be OP on the other isn't exactly my idea of a healthy equilibrium.

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raics wrote:

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herflik wrote:

I dont know why people still diffrentate ranged weapons versus melee weapons. There are melee skills that are basicaly ranged. Also I dont understand why ranged should be penalized in damage terms comparing to melee. This is done in so wrong way.

Dunno, probably because a decent bit of fighting for ranged builds goes on in offscreen.

But you're right, because PoE lacks the archetype system all playstyles need to have roughly similar capabilities in dps, coverage and survivability. True, they reach those points in different ways but are indeed similarly capable. Of course, I consider trying for a bit more archetype distinction a lost cause, the game or the playerbase probably couldn't handle it right now, but that's besides the point anyway.

They need to remake whole defensive system.
As you, I was playing since closed beta, times where armor was actualy doing its job, where you could get high evasion without super uber gear. They nerfed it to oblivion, since high defense characters were actualy tanky, as they are supposed to be (well maybe bit to tanky).

I understand very well that POE is game of bilion builds. HP is basicaly same on every character, energy shield IMO shouldnt exist at all (second HP system, what for its needed? I dunno).
POE would need to buff defensive systems of the game. They need to be resonable and strong when invested in heavly by the player. Then they could add defensive penalties or bonuses to weapons.
Why weapons? Because they are the main item that distiguish melee from ranged and caster.
You could for example give +HP for wielding two handers, where -HP for using bows and wands.
This way ranged and melee have visible diffrence in survibality.
But again, for that to work, POE need viable defense mechanism, otherwise all ranged chars might become unplayable.

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raics wrote:

So, if you had 100% phys damage from shadow part, 200% projectile damage, slow proj and pierce you're scaling bleed at 1100% in total. If we put trap bonuses in there it starts to get really scary.

At the same time the only practical double dipping bonus to stack on melee bleeders is physical damage as generic damage increases are fairly rare. So, you got 100% increased physical and only less duration as a double dipping mod you can use only with Earthquake, that gives you some 340% total scaling, kinda crappy.

Fortunately, all this will go out of the window once they remove double dipping in next patch, we'll probably see some changes to DoT status effects then.

Wouldn't a bleed bow even with difficulty crafting a good weapon that way be amazing when combined with traps?

I need to rethink my trap build now. Pretty much ignored trap damage. Figured with Bladefall it wasn't worth it. Also what about a bleed bow + caustic arrow + gmp + point blank + conc + trap? Would you then be double dipping both bleed and poison or even cripple dipping with trap? Hmmm, I think I might have found how I want to redo my trapper now lol!

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safety2nd wrote:

Wouldn't a bleed bow even with difficulty crafting a good weapon that way be amazing when combined with traps?

I need to rethink my trap build now. Pretty much ignored trap damage. Figured with Bladefall it wasn't worth it. Also what about a bleed bow + caustic arrow + gmp + point blank + conc + trap? Would you then be double dipping both bleed and poison or even cripple dipping with trap? Hmmm, I think I might have found how I want to redo my trapper now lol!

Of course it would, but crafting a good physical bleed bow is a whole different ballpark than a Vagan dagger.

Caustic wouldn't work well as a bleed skill, you need to hit directly something with it to cause bleed and CA is a strange skill in that regard, all arrows from GMP will stop at the same distance instead of going until they hit something. You'd gimp your CA more with GMP than you'd gain with bleed.

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herflik wrote:

They need to remake whole defensive system.

Yeah, I made a few suggestions on that over the years but I just can't imagine them bothering with that kind of thing at this point, this is probably as good as we'll get.

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raics wrote:

Of course it would, but crafting a good physical bleed bow is a whole different ballpark than a Vagan dagger.

Caustic wouldn't work well as a bleed skill, you need to hit directly something with it to cause bleed and CA is a strange skill in that regard, all arrows from GMP will stop at the same distance instead of going until they hit something. You'd gimp your CA more with GMP than you'd gain with bleed.

Does CA + GMP run into the issue you described when used with a trap? What about throwing chain in there? Would RoA + poison work better?

Even single target Puncture with raw physical damage support gems like slower projectiles and physical projectile damage supporting it, is extremely underwhelming. The gem definitely needs some love.