Pay 2 Win Premium Tabs Features - why GGG lies

A paid advantage that makes your character stronger, is p2w for characters.
A paid advantage that makes you trade more efficiently/conviniently, is p2w for trading.
A paid advantage that makes you insta-leap 100 spots up the ladder, is p2w for ladder...
A ...

Guys are we discussing kinds of p2w now? because I have examples. Oh boy do I.
Saw so much crap in the gaming industry, I have examples for kinds of p2w, magnitude of p2w... whatever-the-fuck you'd try to shift this discussion into to prevent the main point being addressed... of p2w.

So please don't.
And please address the main point instead of trying to divert from it.

Tabs are paid advantage in the game. Magnitude? Kind? Money color? I don't care. They are.

Premium Tabs? I'll take Mark's example of grocery bags here: the shop now sells you bags. People without bags either carry with their hands and pockets (doable, but seriously?), or buy bags from a 3rd party shop before they enter this one.
This shop even told that shop, what is the required size and strength of a bag. API.
Not going to prevent that shop from suddenly going bankrupt, raising bag prices into absurdity, or making crap bags that tear up as you put something in them.
Not going to put any responsibility on the grocery shop for it, even though that's the single best damned bags shop in 20 nautical miles radius.
Therefore the API-enabled bags shop is not relevant, to discussing to advantage given by paying for a bag or a cart at the groceries shop, over carrying a carrot with your teeth.

Note this example is far more extreme than p.tabs, in it's magnitude.
But we aren't talking magnitude. You should really... really get that by now.

Edit: and btw I became really good at carrying carrots in my teeth over the years.
So good, each time I enter Hideout Vagan is shouting "get that crap out of my crafting bench, and stop using it for storage - or no duel for you!".

Still doesnt matter as its pretty much not the advantages GGG has stated. For them P2W is stuff like spending mtx to buy your way to end-game like a pre-levelled 100 character, XXX tokens for reviving from Hardcore, XXX tokens for currency. Storage and ease of trade is a QoL feature which doesn't impact the core gameplay which is in combat not playing the game like a storage or trade simulator.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

@Mark: Mapping is a convenience. You could level to 100 exclusively through Dried Lake runs.

Also, I've arbitrarily decided maps aren't items, because you cannot equip them. Kinda like how stash tabs aren't items.

I'm exaggerating, of course. But I don't see why you don't consider a stash tab to be a tangible asset, in essentially the same category as items... Or, perhaps more importantly, how you don't see that saving time is the very essence of p2w

So if I take some time off work at the start of a league, so that I have more time to play PoE, does that mean PoE is now more pay to win? It's costing me money, and I'm getting an advantage over everyone else who has to keep working/schooling 5 days per week. Should we have an amount of hours played capped so as to ensure a level playing field?

This is the sort of argument you end up on if you push the "time is advantage" line of reasoning. So let's not go there. Having to spend 5 minutes setting up/maintaining a shop is not a disadvantage. It's an inconvenience. And a slight one at that.

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scale_e wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

@Mark: Mapping is a convenience. You could level to 100 exclusively through Dried Lake runs.

Also, I've arbitrarily decided maps aren't items, because you cannot equip them. Kinda like how stash tabs aren't items.

I'm exaggerating, of course. But I don't see why you don't consider a stash tab to be a tangible asset, in essentially the same category as items... Or, perhaps more importantly, how you don't see that saving time is the very essence of p2w

So if I take some time off work at the start of a league, so that I have more time to play PoE, does that mean PoE is now more pay to win? It's costing me money, and I'm getting an advantage over everyone else who has to keep working/schooling 5 days per week. Should we have an amount of hours played capped so as to ensure a level playing field?

This is the sort of argument you end up on if you push the "time is advantage" line of reasoning. So let's not go there. Having to spend 5 minutes setting up/maintaining a shop is not a disadvantage. It's an inconvenience. And a slight one at that.

Then you'd be fine with GGG selling "load screen reducer"? All GGG has to do is make the loadscreen last a minimum of 30s and all they sell is the convenience to save 20ish seconds per loadscreen. No problem here, right?

Tabs themselves are P2W. More tabs = More avail to sell = more sells = more better toon you can build. Not sure how premium is tho. Free Procurement or Free Acquisition puts you poe.trade just like the premium tabs do. But fact remains more tabs better for your trade business.

concept/program/designer need to eat too ....
i have premuim stash and i don't use it...
go try warthunder 10 min and will see what is pay2win
peace ;)

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scale_e wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

@Mark: Mapping is a convenience. You could level to 100 exclusively through Dried Lake runs.

Also, I've arbitrarily decided maps aren't items, because you cannot equip them. Kinda like how stash tabs aren't items.

I'm exaggerating, of course. But I don't see why you don't consider a stash tab to be a tangible asset, in essentially the same category as items... Or, perhaps more importantly, how you don't see that saving time is the very essence of p2w

So if I take some time off work at the start of a league, so that I have more time to play PoE, does that mean PoE is now more pay to win? It's costing me money, and I'm getting an advantage over everyone else who has to keep working/schooling 5 days per week. Should we have an amount of hours played capped so as to ensure a level playing field?

This is the sort of argument you end up on if you push the "time is advantage" line of reasoning. So let's not go there. Having to spend 5 minutes setting up/maintaining a shop is not a disadvantage. It's an inconvenience. And a slight one at that.

You can't possibly be unable to how spending less time doing w/e is an advantage vs those who spent more. Almost every p2w advantage is a manipulation of whatever game feature over time versus those who didn't buy it or haven't bought as much.

"

johnKeys wrote:

A paid advantage that makes your character stronger, is p2w for characters.
A paid advantage that makes you trade more efficiently/conviniently, is p2w for trading.
A paid advantage that makes you insta-leap 100 spots up the ladder, is p2w for ladder...
A ...

Guys are we discussing kinds of p2w now? because I have examples. Oh boy do I.
Saw so much crap in the gaming industry, I have examples for kinds of p2w, magnitude of p2w... whatever-the-fuck you'd try to shift this discussion into to prevent the main point being addressed... of p2w.

So please don't.
And please address the main point instead of trying to divert from it.

Tabs are paid advantage in the game. Magnitude? Kind? Money color? I don't care. They are.

Premium Tabs? I'll take Mark's example of grocery bags here: the shop now sells you bags. People without bags either carry with their hands and pockets (doable, but seriously?), or buy bags from a 3rd party shop before they enter this one.
This shop even told that shop, what is the required size and strength of a bag. API.
Not going to prevent that shop from suddenly going bankrupt, raising bag prices into absurdity, or making crap bags that tear up as you put something in them.
Not going to put any responsibility on the grocery shop for it, even though that's the single best damned bags shop in 20 nautical miles radius.
Therefore the API-enabled bags shop is not relevant, to discussing to advantage given by paying for a bag or a cart at the groceries shop, over carrying a carrot with your teeth.

Note this example is far more extreme than p.tabs, in it's magnitude.
But we aren't talking magnitude. You should really... really get that by now.

Edit: and btw I became really good at carrying carrots in my teeth over the years.
So good, each time I enter Hideout Vagan is shouting "get that crap out of my crafting bench, and stop using it for storage - or no duel for you!".

John your arguement presented here simply does not work.

Grocery bags do not compare to software, they do not compare to things that aren't tangible.

You are making it seems like the programs are like poe.trade, but they aren't they continue to work patch after patch without an update. They can lose all support from the original creators and still do the same thing as they do now.

We've already well established the premium tabs aren't providing anything that you cant do with the free programs that even if they stopped getting updates on support will still work because GGG mades the API. But even if they all the sudden stopped working, GGG would react. I rather focus on the here and now and stop talking hypothetical as if it has ANY place in an argument about here and now and whether or not GGG has "lied" or not.

Someone mentioned earlier that 90% of items are listed via premium tabs, its a slightly lower amount but thats LIST, not sales. I would like to know the difference of useage of poe.trade vs any of the newer ones that apparently are only the premium pulls not the forum index as well. We simply don't have data one way or another to say is this an "issue" or not. I can tell you I still exclusively use poe.trade and I'm guessing the majority of people do as well. Like people need to realize they actually hurt themselves if they are using a site that doesn't search ALL available items.

So if you agree with that little part, its obvious (like we already established) that premium tabs don't provide any "advantage"


Then again you still ignore all points made about what dog you have in this fight. You hardly play, you dont trade, you play perm leagues, you dont push the ladder. Even if there was anything to "win" you dont reach for anything that could ever possibly be considered it.


GGG isn't lying, they don't answer to your definitions of generalized "slang"

I still cannot believe this thread is going, like I guess we got nothing more important to talk about.

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goetzjam wrote:

I still cannot believe this thread is going, like I guess we got nothing more important to talk about.

I posted on here a few times as I think is reasonable. It is not reasonable, however, to keep bashing everyone that does not agree with you though. I say it lightly but with a slight seriousness, give it a rest Goetz.

Obviously you have your position and others have theirs. Let someone else take up the mantle of "con" and maybe we'll see some new perspectives.

Personally I don't think either of you (you/john) presented good arguments. So there, you're both wrong.

There are, however, some decent arguments in the thread in general (both sides). They are totally buried by the slew of repetitiveness that you feel is essential to making your point.

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

I still cannot believe this thread is going, like I guess we got nothing more important to talk about.

I posted on here a few times as I think is reasonable. It is not reasonable, however, to keep bashing everyone that does not agree with you though. I say it lightly but with a slight seriousness, give it a rest Goetz.

Obviously you have your position and others have theirs. Let someone else take up the mantle of "con" and maybe we'll see some new perspectives.

Personally I don't think either of you (you/john) presented good arguments. So there, you're both wrong.

There are, however, some decent arguments in the thread in general (both sides). They are totally buried by the slew of repetitiveness that you feel is essential to making your point.

Quite frankly you can fuckoff. The only bashing I did in this thread was a dumbass streamer that has an even dumber following and someone who was too coward to post on their main account and posted on a fresh account.

You can kindly find any object that is near you and stick it somewhere. Better yet stop fucking antagonizing me and find something better to do with your time.



We aren't going to see new perspectives because its the same rehas every 5 pages or so, with 1 new person maybe each 5 pages that sparks the discussion to go round and round again.

Personally I don't give a shit what you think, you obviously disagree with me on many things so its going to be clear that your perspective of any argument I present is going to be skewed.

Your post adds absolutely nothing to this conversation AND COULD HAVE BEEN A PM, instead you decide to post in this thread and contribute nothing but adding to your inflated ego that anyone possibly gives 2 shits what you think. (they dont)

So fuckoff please.

Thanks