SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but the existence of other problems in the game is not relevant, unless Xtorma is arguing that all problems in the game should be ignored if they are only complained about by a "small minority" of people.

Fortunately for its players (and its own business viability), GGG realizes how foolish that position is.

realizes that? or maybe they consciously ignore your little cult? because bending to EVERY little group out there is a correct way of making business.

appealing to everyone is impossible and it is sometimes better to narrow the target market of a product to better serve the remaining group better. your group seem to be outside this target group. for you it is an end of the world. understandably. but do others really care?

GGG has made MANY (in the order of hundreds, if not thousands) of fixes to this game which were only complained about by a small number of people, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Frankly, I think it is more likely that you simply missed mine.

It is quite possible the cost to benefit ratio of adjusting or full out changing the lab is not attractive at this point. It's like asking a company to change the suspension system on their vehicle and it would sell slightly more units per year, but most people still buy the car now, so a rework of the engineering plans , the logistics of procuring new materials, reprogramming the factory robots etc... would only cost money with not enough return.

Perhaps they are proud of the lab in it's current form, and wish to preserve their integrity and the integrity of the artists and engineers who designed and created it.

Perhaps they are even working on a change , but don't want to make a statement until it is finished and tested.

I mean , you can look at the steam numbers and see that it is not having a huge effect. doesn't mean they won't change it, but it does lend evidence to the fact that it is not impacting profit to the extant that people have been trying to state as fact in these threads. You will more than likely get your easy mode eventually, but as of right now, it doesn't look to be a priority.

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Xtorma wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Mentioning other problems that are bothering pro-lab people is apparently done to belittle the labyrinth problem and the people that think the labyrinth/ascendancy points problem needs to be fixed. What they always seem to fail to realize is that just because they don't like something and put up with it, it doesn't mean that labyrinth is not a problem that has had more impact on GGG success. All those problems you mention (most of which I personally don't consider problems) have far fewer threads dedicated to them. The large number of threads regarding labyrinth is anecdotal evidence that labyrinth is a bigger problem and an issue with more impact to GGG than those other problems mentioned. A problem that, I believe, GGG will eventually address.

You have no idea how much impact the lab has on the companies success. You are just saying it, like you think if you repeat it enough GGG will somehow disregard all their numbers to the contrary and suddenly believe it's true. If it was having any kind significant discernable impact on their revenue, it would have been addressed by now.

I would just say release the points , so we can have significant feedback again, but it won't help, because the salty crusaders will simply find another reason to make threats and demands of the company.

I am happy you don't think any of the issues I mentioned are problems, but there are other small minorities, who beg to differ, they are just like you, only a little less salty.

There is strong anecdotal evidence that the labyrinth problem is much bigger than the other problems. That anecdotal evidence is the number of threads and the number of posts about it in this Feedback and Suggestions forum. True it doesn't prove it beyond any doubt but saying that there is "no idea" is inaccurate, I believe. GGG does not likely have definitive numbers either. They know people run the labyrinth to get the points. They don't know from that fact that they like or dislike it. They can know it by reviewing the Feedback and Suggestions forum though.

If it's had a discernible impact on revenue it may not have been addressed by now. Not coming out with new content would have a big impact on revenue. New major development takes a year or more in the development pipeline. It is very disruptive to that process to drop or put new content underdevelopment on hold. If the fix requires a full development cycle then getting the labyrinth/ascendancy fix out could take a year, depending how they decide to fix it.

If other people beg to differ then fine, I'm sure they would appreciate your support for their cause, in other threads here in the Feedback and Suggestions forum. Or you can instead go into their threads and argue that their problems are insignificant because there are other problems being complained about in other threads? It's up to you.

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Xtorma wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

realizes that? or maybe they consciously ignore your little cult? because bending to EVERY little group out there is a correct way of making business.

appealing to everyone is impossible and it is sometimes better to narrow the target market of a product to better serve the remaining group better. your group seem to be outside this target group. for you it is an end of the world. understandably. but do others really care?

GGG has made MANY (in the order of hundreds, if not thousands) of fixes to this game which were only complained about by a small number of people, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Frankly, I think it is more likely that you simply missed mine.

It is quite possible the cost to benefit ratio of adjusting or full out changing the lab is not attractive at this point. It's like asking a company to change the suspension system on their vehicle and it would sell slightly more units per year, but most people still buy the car now, so a rework of the engineering plans , the logistics of procuring new materials, reprogramming the factory robots etc... would only cost money with not enough return.

Perhaps they are proud of the lab in it's current form, and wish to preserve their integrity and the integrity of the artists and engineers who designed and created it.

Perhaps they are even working on a change , but don't want to make a statement until it is finished and tested.

I mean , you can look at the steam numbers and see that it is not having a huge effect. doesn't mean they won't change it, but it does lend evidence to the fact that it is not impacting profit to the extant that people have been trying to state as fact in these threads. You will more than likely get your easy mode eventually, but as of right now, it doesn't look to be a priority.

This is reasonable, imo. I posted a few more ideas here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1729128/page/6#p13669951

But the gist of what I had to say was quite similar to what you have said here.

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a) Objections to the trap gameplay per se. If you think traps of this nature don't belong in PoE because it is too harsh a departure from the existing gameplay, if you think traps of this nature don't belong in any game that is a D2 successor, if you think traps of this nature don't belong in any game subject to network hiccups, or if you think traps of this nature don't belong with a mouse+keyboard control scheme, your objection probably fits in this category.

b) Objections to the non-optional nature of the content. If you think AC points make this content a de facto mandatory part of the game, and you think it should be optional to the same extent other non-expansion additions to the game are optional, your objection probably fits in this category.

c) Objections to the reward structure. If you run the labyrinth despite hating it, believe that content should be intrinsically fun, your objection probably fits in this category.

d) Objections to GGG's approach and implementation. If you think a divided, toxic community is an unhealthy community, and that the labyrinth as it is currently implemented is causing exactly that, your objection probably fits in this category.
-This specific one is very crucial and somewhat new part to why the labyrinth as it is currently causes discord. Might not seem like a big issue, but dividing the community to that point only causes problems.

e) Objection to the difficulty of the traps and/or labyrinth. If you think the traps and/or Izaro encounters are too difficult and should be nerfed, your objection probably fits in this category.
-Mostly an issue relative to new players and the problems they have with the labyrinth. It might not be a big one but its definately there

A) Traps are just a mechanic to change how you play. This change that people are unwilling to adept to appears to be the issue stated here. I think traps are key to the theme. Why would Izaro hoard treasure in a Labyrinth unprotected by traps like any other king or pharoah in history. Traps need to stay, and the real issue in the traps need to be fixed. When people complain about traps their not complaining about the trap itself, but the damage it does. % damage is very painful, especially when hit by more than 1 trap at the same time. The simple solution is make trap damage flat damage. No one will complain about traps after that except noobs.

B) Just because some past content is optional doesn't mean it is mandatory to make all new content optional. Ascendency is different than any other expansion, it provides insane power creep, it can not be easily obtained. Lab is difficult to match the power ascendency provides. For this complaint I am going to focus on Uber Lab as normal Lab is a joke. Uber lab should be difficult, getting those last 2 points should be difficult, the content should make it difficult to be carried by others. Uber lab does that. I don't want to see that change ever.

C) Labyrinth is not fun. That is because it is time consuming. I am however rewarded well at the end. That makes up for it. I am a juggernaut though so traps are not as problematic for me as others. Dying to trapps may make the experience poor for others but every trap is avoidable. The problem is in the player and their lack of patience which they are not used to. POE is all about clear speed and time management efficiency. Labyrinth changes that up and players have a knee jerk reaction to the change. I would not mind Lab getting smaller to speed up times, but rewards would have to be reduced to meet that desire.

D) The community is already divided and toxic between standard, league, and hardcore players. My question is how does this effect your gameplay. Other people liking or disliking Lab has no effect on you. Your ability to gear your character to handle Lab and its traps effects you, thats all. Lab is showing the difference between the good and bad players, that is all. The minority complaining about Lab is small. Very few players actually use the forums compared to how many play. Likewise few players trade making the entire trading community a minority of the entire player base. How many people do you think actually hate Lab compared to those who don't. That number is what will dictate if changes will come.

E) Izaro is not difficult, even if you allow him to reach full power. Can he one shot you, yes he can, but so can other bosses. This is just like when Malachai was released in Act 4 and people complained he was OP when it was an all mechanical fight. Now he is pretty much a joke. If Izaro gets nerfed it defeats the purpose of lab, more importantly Uber Lab which has to be difficult to we truly rewarding. I conpare Izaro to a boss in say Dark Souls. Fot every player that boss is difficult at first, and you will die a lot. Once you learn their moves, and when they are open to attack, the entire fight is extremely easy. Players dislike this approach to combat, that doesn't mean it is to difficuly, just players unwilling to learn, or rushing, or not knowing simple mechanics. The traps need to stay as well, its thematic. The damage just needs to be changed to flat and no one will complain.

@Jgizle

You have not characterized the main problem properly. The main problem is that screens full of traps is a different kind of game play. A game play that many do not like or do not want to see in an arpg. A game play that is more like Prince of Persia, Frogger or Mario.

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Turtledove wrote:

@Jgizle

You have not characterized the main problem properly. The main problem is that screens full of traps is a different kind of game play. A game play that many do not like or do not want to see in an arpg. A game play that is more like Prince of Persia, Frogger or Mario.

Well that is still not really an argument. I don't like Onions (actually 23% of the customers of my Fast Food Stand share that oppinion), my options are either ignore onions and eat it as it is supposed to be eaten, remove the onions and only eat the rest (or order without onions in the first place, but its essentially the same) or search for something that doesn't have onions in the first place.

Traps in an ARPGs are like Plattforming in a Shooter, it is there you hate it and you suddenly realize how terrible jump controls are (I look at you Half Life). But did the Jump Part after you go through the portal to Xen turn Half Life into a terrible game? Not really, you hated that part, but the game was great. Although Path of Exile is not as great as Half Life the lab is far too unimportant to be more than an annoyance. Because most of the game isn't the Lab and honestly even the lab is only a small part traps. I spend about 2 hours in the Labyrinth this league and likely about 100 on everything else, from those 2 hours in the lab I maybe spend half an hour on traps, likely even less. Most of the time was likely spend watching Izaro enter and leaving the room.

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Emphasy wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

@Jgizle

You have not characterized the main problem properly. The main problem is that screens full of traps is a different kind of game play. A game play that many do not like or do not want to see in an arpg. A game play that is more like Prince of Persia, Frogger or Mario.

Well that is still not really an argument. I don't like Onions (actually 23% of the customers of my Fast Food Stand share that oppinion), my options are either ignore onions and eat it as it is supposed to be eaten, remove the onions and only eat the rest (or order without onions in the first place, but its essentially the same) or search for something that doesn't have onions in the first place.

Traps in an ARPGs are like Plattforming in a Shooter, it is there you hate it and you suddenly realize how terrible jump controls are (I look at you Half Life). But did the Jump Part after you go through the portal to Xen turn Half Life into a terrible game? Not really, you hated that part, but the game was great. Although Path of Exile is not as great as Half Life the lab is far too unimportant to be more than an annoyance. Because most of the game isn't the Lab and honestly even the lab is only a small part traps. I spend about 2 hours in the Labyrinth this league and likely about 100 on everything else, from those 2 hours in the lab I maybe spend half an hour on traps, likely even less. Most of the time was likely spend watching Izaro enter and leaving the room.

I was stating facts, not making an argument. Just like not liking onions is a fact not an argument. If onions were hurting you business and the suggestion box was filled with requests to make onions optional then most smart businessmen would make onions optional.

Traps in ARPG's is common. But, when there are screens full of traps that must be traversed then the game play switches from kill monsters and collect loot to trap game play.

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Turtledove wrote:

But, when there are screens full of traps that must be traversed then the game play switches from kill monsters and collect loot to trap game play.

What about when you've got multiple screens that are devoid of mobs (and also traps)? Does that also change the "game play" because you're no longer killing mobs and collecting loot?

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

But, when there are screens full of traps that must be traversed then the game play switches from kill monsters and collect loot to trap game play.

What about when you've got multiple screens that are devoid of mobs (and also traps)? Does that also change the "game play" because you're no longer killing mobs and collecting loot?

Of course, it changes from fun arpg game play to not so fun arpg gameplay.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

But, when there are screens full of traps that must be traversed then the game play switches from kill monsters and collect loot to trap game play.

What about when you've got multiple screens that are devoid of mobs (and also traps)? Does that also change the "game play" because you're no longer killing mobs and collecting loot?

Of course, it changes from fun arpg game play to not so fun arpg gameplay.

Well then why aren't you campaigning for that to be changed instead of laby changes? There are much more instances in the game where you're just running with nothing around you. All the way from act 1 normal to maps...a ridiculous amount of time compared to the couple screens full of traps you're talking about.