Ever played a "free" game where the requirement to be an elite player is to spend THOUSANDS of $$ ?

"

Maswasnos wrote:

color coding tabs and MTX do not count).

"

HeWhoAnswersTheCall wrote:

This trade situation remains, at worst, grey area. As you've pointed out, and no doubt will be largely ignored, PoE is still far, far below the threshold of most f2p games in terms of p2w. A lot of people don't realise there's a technical reason for all this: only premium stash tabs can be manipulated by the player. Standard tabs are static. As for the 'give everyone premium tabs' argument, I personally don't mind but I know GGG's stance on giving away things that others have already paid for, because I've suggested they do just that in the past, to no avail.

It's not that PoE has an intrinsically entitled community -- in their naivete, GGG have made them this way. Chris figured being generous (but still making money, of course) would engender a sense of appreciation. And for a while it did. For a while, the moral card earned GGG a lot of cash, including mine. But now? All it's done is give these people a very false sense of what is right and what is wrong. Of what they deserve and what they don't.

I don't know many real life situations where you get as much for free as with PoE, to the point where sometimes I wonder how the hell GGG stay afloat. So it must be disheartening for them to see this sort of backlash after years of being easily, EASILY the most generous, morally-upstanding free to play developer on the planet.

This is why the really smart, successful people in the world are just bastards all the time. Idiots get used to that and accept it for what it is. Take the good with the bad and all that. If a bastard does something good for once, it's a big deal. Cue fanfare. But when someone who's always good does something potentially even vaguely bad, oh my god, END OF THE WORLD. HOW. DARE. THEY?

That is how every single person bitching about this looks to me. Like someone who has no idea how good they've had it whingeing about the slightest change towards what is actually a normal situation for the rest of the world. Like people who've had a free ride for ages and somehow think that's the way things should be is now being charged a few bucks to stay on board. Oh, but it's the PRINCIPLE of the matter right?

Easy to say when it's not your business to run. When you're not the one making sure food gets to the tables of all your employees. When the well-being of literally dozens of families doesn't rest on your shoulders.

These people think they've the moral high ground, when all they're doing is attacking a business that has for years treated them better than *any other game company out there*.

Way to go.

"

The person who has bought 100 premium tabs never, ever has to vendor something that could have sold for 1 alch/fuse, putting them ahead of the f2p. In addition, the organization lets them process transactions more quickly.

"

AntPi1e_ wrote:

"

The person who has bought 100 premium tabs never, ever has to vendor something that could have sold for 1 alch/fuse, putting them ahead of the f2p. In addition, the organization lets them process transactions more quickly.

Disagree. Taking time out of playing to go sell an item for 1 alch or fusing is actually less profitable than you think. That time you were playing you could have found currency or items worth equal to or more than 1 alch/fusing. Also you must account for gem experience lost by taking that minute or two out of your playing time.

The word we use in the business world for this is opportunity cost.

"

AntPi1e_ wrote:

"

The person who has bought 100 premium tabs never, ever has to vendor something that could have sold for 1 alch/fuse, putting them ahead of the f2p. In addition, the organization lets them process transactions more quickly.

Disagree. Taking time out of playing to go sell an item for 1 alch or fusing is actually less profitable than you think. That time you were playing you could have found currency or items worth equal to or more than 1 alch/fusing. Also you must account for gem experience lost by taking that minute or two out of your playing time.

The word we use in the business world for this is opportunity cost.

"

I can peddle in hypotheticals too. And that person could also be so good at stocking and selling 1 alch merchandise that they have 10 sales lined up for them inbetween every map they do - something the f2p players doesn't have the space to do.

Furthermore if experience loss on your gems is a factor in whether or not you're making a trade, I think we're playing the game at different levels.

"

HeWhoAnswersTheCall wrote:

Oh, I'm well aware, Antpile. Just pointing out the possible irony (or maybe significant point) of one of PoE's biggest financial supporters being very, very stingy when it comes to any other free-to-play.

And I did get burned on Allods as well. I swore off F2Ps after that debacle. As I've said before, and will no doubt say again, I play and support PoE despite it being F2P, not because. If there were even a true inkling of pay to win introduced to PoE, I wouldn't bother posting about it. I'd be talking directly to the people responsible. And it would be a much sharper conversation than whatever Cadumal and the others are going on about with their 'you lied to us!' diatribe. I swear, you'd think they'd never even paid attention to politics or big business. Those people change their ways all the time. It's only lying if you can prove they had intent to deceive at the time of the declaration. Otherwise it's what adults call 'adapting to survive'. Businesses that don't do it tend to die.

This trade situation remains, at worst, grey area. As you've pointed out, and no doubt will be largely ignored, PoE is still far, far below the threshold of most f2p games in terms of p2w. A lot of people don't realise there's a technical reason for all this: only premium stash tabs can be manipulated by the player. Standard tabs are static. As for the 'give everyone premium tabs' argument, I personally don't mind but I know GGG's stance on giving away things that others have already paid for, because I've suggested they do just that in the past, to no avail.

It's not that PoE has an intrinsically entitled community -- in their naivete, GGG have made them this way. Chris figured being generous (but still making money, of course) would engender a sense of appreciation. And for a while it did. For a while, the moral card earned GGG a lot of cash, including mine. But now? All it's done is give these people a very false sense of what is right and what is wrong. Of what they deserve and what they don't.

I don't know many real life situations where you get as much for free as with PoE, to the point where sometimes I wonder how the hell GGG stay afloat. So it must be disheartening for them to see this sort of backlash after years of being easily, EASILY the most generous, morally-upstanding free to play developer on the planet.

This is why the really smart, successful people in the world are just bastards all the time. Idiots get used to that and accept it for what it is. Take the good with the bad and all that. If a bastard does something good for once, it's a big deal. Cue fanfare. But when someone who's always good does something potentially even vaguely bad, oh my god, END OF THE WORLD. HOW. DARE. THEY?

That is how every single person bitching about this looks to me. Like someone who has no idea how good they've had it whingeing about the slightest change towards what is actually a normal situation for the rest of the world. Like people who've had a free ride for ages and somehow think that's the way things should be is now being charged a few bucks to stay on board. Oh, but it's the PRINCIPLE of the matter right?

Easy to say when it's not your business to run. When you're not the one making sure food gets to the tables of all your employees. When the well-being of literally dozens of families doesn't rest on your shoulders.

These people think they've the moral high ground, when all they're doing is attacking a business that has for years treated them better than *any other game company out there*.

Way to go.

PS If you really, really thought supporters would never have any sort of advantage over freeloaders, you were lying to yourself. The key is how much advantage are you willing to accept before you feel the game has become immoral? If extra storage instead of having to mule (which is a laborious process) didn't push you over the line, I don't see why this is any different. It's not as if everyone who owns a premium stash tab is even going to trade. I likely won't. Oh, man. That must really piss someone off. Me with my whopping 70 premium tabs, and not even going to use them. Wow, I feel like that rich bastard with 70 Ferraris in his garage he never drives...except not really.

"

The number one game in the world right now is what?

And yes, we do have the moral highground because all you pretty titled people told us for years how "good" and "moral" GGG was because they refused to add an advantage for paying customers.In fact, you guys made it seem as though we owed you or GGG (one in the same as far as you're concerned) for how good we had it. Fact is, you are and were wrong, GGG went for the easy cash grab instead of thinking of a more elegant solution that would involve people actually wanting to spend money instead of feeling like they need to spend money (which btw is an important distinction I don't see anyone talking about).

Every argument I hear now comes down to "they're a business, of course they want money". That doesn't make the decision right for the customer or the game. I think this is the wrong choice and I think it signals a very noticeable shift in GGG's business model

"

I KNOW that Clash of Clans and Bahamut and Deck Heroes and all those have whales keeping them more than afloat, which is why I don't feel bad playing the shit out of them for free. PoE, on the other hand, has no such thing. The whales here are mostly generous souls who like collecting titles, enjoy the perks like designing things and basically have little to no real in-game power.

And that to me is the core of why PoE remains non-p2w. If you could draw a straight line from 'Ruler of Wraeclast' to in-game power, as you could with ANY other f2P out there, then there'd be a case. But that isn't the case. And too many people are confusing 'pay for convenience/QoL' with 'pay to win'. Too many people who don't know the first damn thing about real F2P P2W.