Ever played a "free" game where the requirement to be an elite player is to spend THOUSANDS of $$ ?

I play a bunch of those, Antpile, without putting in a cent to see how much I can squeeze out of them. :)

The trick to freeplaying any f2p is not getting competitive. Create a rotation. My tablet is full of them. Some of those games are actually really well made and a lot of fun. Just don't get competitive, because that's when the wallet will start trembling.

PoE is the ONLY free to play I've put more than 20 bucks into. If I happily play a blatantly p2w f2p for more than, say, 50 hours, they get $5. 100 hours, another 5. If I'm still playing after a few months, a whopping 10.

Doesn't happen often. The most recent is Rapture. Man that game is fun.

"

AntPi1e_ wrote:

You do realize if GGG did not listen to the community this new optional aspect of trading wouldnt have ever come out??? GGG released this trading feature due to the community constantly asking for it. Yes, people were not expecting a premium stash tab to be required to use this optional convenient feature, but I direct you to my first post for my opinion on that matter. Next???

This?

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AntPi1e_ wrote:

...And some of you are outraged about the new OPTION to spend a few dollars to SUPPORT PoE for a CONVENIENCE (not a direct advantage) in game????? Get real!!!!!

This reminde me of Sparta, messenger scene you know.
Expansion + This scanadal can make "Convinience" lose its footing and become Uncovinence before you say Ascendent.

As i say people dont care what suits GGG, get real...

"

I play a bunch of those, Antpile, without putting in a cent to see how much I can squeeze out of them. :)

The trick to freeplaying any f2p is not getting competitive. Create a rotation. My tablet is full of them. Some of those games are actually really well made and a lot of fun. Just don't get competitive, because that's when the wallet will start trembling.

PoE is the ONLY free to play I've put more than 20 bucks into. If I happily play a blatantly p2w f2p for more than, say, 50 hours, they get $5. 100 hours, another 5. If I'm still playing after a few months, a whopping 10.

Doesn't happen often. The most recent is Rapture. Man that game is fun.

Thats great that you have fun in those games without spending. But the point here is if you wanted to be a high ranking player in those games, you would be REQUIRED to spend hundreds,if not thousands.

"

No, I haven't spent much time playing those games, because they tend to be rubbish games that feel icky to play... and that is what you need to be thinking about, not the cost.

I agree they are usually rubbish games.

"

i disagree. chris has said this game has only "ethical microtransactions" and is "free to play". this feature improves a player's ability to trade and make currency. currency is vital to improving your character. i do not see this feature as an "ethical microtransaction".

The difference in time between using popular free software and this new trading feature is minimal, and not worth noting. I would compare that to saying buying and installing an SSD in your computer is pay2win because it increases load times.

*sigh*

The point isn't that people have to spend a little money to trade, as a lot of us have already done that.

The point is that GGG has set out to create a game in which paying supporters have no advantage over free players. This is the first time that paid players will have access to an in-game system that free players will not (color coding tabs and MTX do not count). Does that line up with GGG's vision, the vision that I and many others have paid to support? I don't think so.

Now, GGG doesn't have to do a whole lot to set this right. Simply allowing regular tabs to be listed as public will solve the entire issue. Giving away one free premium tab upgrade will solve the issue. A lot of stuff will solve the issue.

Another problem I haven't seen these threads address is the people who bought a ton of regular tabs under the impression that premium tabs offered nothing extra but colors and renaming. These users got shafted out of the trade system, and now will have to buy more tabs or waste money to upgrade their tabs.

Oh, I'm well aware, Antpile. Just pointing out the possible irony (or maybe significant point) of one of PoE's biggest financial supporters being very, very stingy when it comes to any other free-to-play.

And I did get burned on Allods as well. I swore off F2Ps after that debacle. As I've said before, and will no doubt say again, I play and support PoE despite it being F2P, not because. If there were even a true inkling of pay to win introduced to PoE, I wouldn't bother posting about it. I'd be talking directly to the people responsible. And it would be a much sharper conversation than whatever Cadumal and the others are going on about with their 'you lied to us!' diatribe. I swear, you'd think they'd never even paid attention to politics or big business. Those people change their ways all the time. It's only lying if you can prove they had intent to deceive at the time of the declaration. Otherwise it's what adults call 'adapting to survive'. Businesses that don't do it tend to die.

This trade situation remains, at worst, grey area. As you've pointed out, and no doubt will be largely ignored, PoE is still far, far below the threshold of most f2p games in terms of p2w. A lot of people don't realise there's a technical reason for all this: only premium stash tabs can be manipulated by the player. Standard tabs are static. As for the 'give everyone premium tabs' argument, I personally don't mind but I know GGG's stance on giving away things that others have already paid for, because I've suggested they do just that in the past, to no avail.

It's not that PoE has an intrinsically entitled community -- in their naivete, GGG have made them this way. Chris figured being generous (but still making money, of course) would engender a sense of appreciation. And for a while it did. For a while, the moral card earned GGG a lot of cash, including mine. But now? All it's done is give these people a very false sense of what is right and what is wrong. Of what they deserve and what they don't.

I don't know many real life situations where you get as much for free as with PoE, to the point where sometimes I wonder how the hell GGG stay afloat. So it must be disheartening for them to see this sort of backlash after years of being easily, EASILY the most generous, morally-upstanding free to play developer on the planet.

This is why the really smart, successful people in the world are just bastards all the time. Idiots get used to that and accept it for what it is. Take the good with the bad and all that. If a bastard does something good for once, it's a big deal. Cue fanfare. But when someone who's always good does something potentially even vaguely bad, oh my god, END OF THE WORLD. HOW. DARE. THEY?

That is how every single person bitching about this looks to me. Like someone who has no idea how good they've had it whingeing about the slightest change towards what is actually a normal situation for the rest of the world. Like people who've had a free ride for ages and somehow think that's the way things should be is now being charged a few bucks to stay on board. Oh, but it's the PRINCIPLE of the matter right?

Easy to say when it's not your business to run. When you're not the one making sure food gets to the tables of all your employees. When the well-being of literally dozens of families doesn't rest on your shoulders.

These people think they've the moral high ground, when all they're doing is attacking a business that has for years treated them better than *any other game company out there*.

Way to go.

PS If you really, really thought supporters would never have any sort of advantage over freeloaders, you were lying to yourself. The key is how much advantage are you willing to accept before you feel the game has become immoral? If extra storage instead of having to mule (which is a laborious process) didn't push you over the line, I don't see why this is any different. It's not as if everyone who owns a premium stash tab is even going to trade. I likely won't. Oh, man. That must really piss someone off. Me with my whopping 70 premium tabs, and not even going to use them. Wow, I feel like that rich bastard with 70 Ferraris in his garage he never drives...except not really.

^I Was wondering when you would rekt the forums.

I was considering the possibility of the normal tabs simply not having the functionality required to implement this.

Combined with the sheer amount of them that would have to be constantly forwarded etc which i assume would cost a fuck-ton more then only doing the premiums.

Both work as reasonable arguments, reason, ha.

Peace,

-Boem-

HeWhoAnswersTheCall- Thank you for the lengthy, well thought out post. You might need a TLDR segment for our ADHD folks, but a good read for myself.

"

^I Was wondering when you would rekt the forums.

I was considering the possibility of the normal tabs simply not having the functionality required to implement this.

Combined with the sheer amount of them that would have to be constantly forwarded etc which i assume would cost a fuck-ton more then only doing the premiums.

Both work as reasonable arguments, reason, ha.

Peace,

-Boem-

Very reasonable points as well.

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lagwin1980 wrote:

Premium tabs are not required, this still requires the use of trade tools/sites which will function the same for you without the premium tabs and almost exactly the same as those with premium tabs

Thats like saying Wal-Mart doesnt need that much square footage for their stores. That they could do just as well if they built stores the size of a small apartment. The simple truth is, the more stash tabs you have, the more items you can store for later trading. I have 40 tabs and am not ruthless trader. 4 tabs are full of consumables and currency and general items that everyone typically should have tabbed. The 4 you get may seem enough, but once you acclimate to the game, you realize that you need a lot more than that.

The tab situtation is most certainly An advantage garnered through money. Dont think we'll ever see stats, but I'd wager stash tabs probably account for like 70% of GGG's revenue stream.

"

Thats like saying Wal-Mart doesnt need that much square footage for their stores. That they could do just as well if they built stores the size of a small apartment. The simole truth is, the more stash tabs you have, the more items you can store for later trading. I have 40 tabs and am not ruthless trader. 4 tabs are full of consumables and currency and general items that everyone typically should have tabbed. The 4 you get may seem enough, but once you acclimate to the game, you realize that you need a lot more than that.

The tab situtation is most certainly An advantage garnered through money. Dont think we'll ever see stats, but I'd wager stash tabs probably account for like 70% of GGG's revenue stream.

Disagree. If you price your items lower than anyone elses you DO NOT need more than 4 tabs. Your items will sell faster and you will have more room. If you have an item listed for super cheap and its been in your stash for a long period of time , either lower the price more or vendor it because its useless trash. There are ways around not having a ton of tabs, premium or not.

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Dont think we'll ever see stats, but I'd wager stash tabs probably account for like 70% of GGG's revenue stream.

Okay? You make that sound like GGG making any money is a bad thing.

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_Tiem wrote:

"

lagwin1980 wrote:

Premium tabs are not required, this still requires the use of trade tools/sites which will function the same for you without the premium tabs and almost exactly the same as those with premium tabs

Thats like saying Wal-Mart doesnt need that much square footage for their stores. That they could do just as well if they built stores the size of a small apartment. The simple truth is, the more stash tabs you have, the more items you can store for later trading. I have 40 tabs and am not ruthless trader. 4 tabs are full of consumables and currency and general items that everyone typically should have tabbed. The 4 you get may seem enough, but once you acclimate to the game, you realize that you need a lot more than that.

The tab situtation is most certainly An advantage garnered through money. Dont think we'll ever see stats, but I'd wager stash tabs probably account for like 70% of GGG's revenue stream.

But ask yourself if you'd rather have D2's space with no chance of getting more.. I mean..