Elemental Damage Taken As Physical

Right now we have Chaos damage that cannot be converted at the end of the line and physical which you cannot convert into. I think the order is Physical -> Lightning -> Cold -> Fire -> Chaos. This though also means that we can never have an Avatar of Ice/Lightning passiv and we are basically out of conversation options. We could just introduce more items/skills/passivs with the same conversations that are already there.

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Emphasy wrote:

Right now we have Chaos damage that cannot be converted at the end of the line and physical which you cannot convert into. I think the order is Physical -> Lightning -> Cold -> Fire -> Chaos. This though also means that we can never have an Avatar of Ice/Lightning passiv and we are basically out of conversation options. We could just introduce more items/skills/passivs with the same conversations that are already there.

I think the game would greatly benefit from more phys to element conversion support gems or items, which has no problem in the current system (eg. phys to fire, phys to cold).

I also think that there are a lot of cool thematic options to being able to take or deal a big portion as physical. An example would be a Templar who philosophically is no longer religious, and subscribes to physicalism.

It would also mean that physical glacial cascade (gore cascade) would work.

The conversion problem mentioned by Jonathan earlier could maybe be overcome by requiring active skills to be tagged with the element you are wishing to convert or otherwise disallowing you to equip items with conflicting conversion.

For example, thematically consider you may not be able to use burning arrow if you have asphyxia's wrath equipped.

I don't understand why our damage conversion can't function as a damage taken like players have, but I appreciate there are costs to changing it

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Dan_GGG wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

Oh shit, I had completely forgotten about Rat Cage. Torment was over too quickly. :P

Good to know that it doesn't use the same system. Is there ever a possibility of changing the conversion code for players or is it going to be stuck the way it is for the foreseeable future? It's certainly not necessarily impossible, especially since a lot of the conversion math has to be done up front in the case of >100% X -> Y conversion.

The conversion code isn't different for players. There are two separate mechanics here - one is "Damage Conversion", and the other is "Damage Taken". Monsters can take damage as other types as well, but I don't think we ever use it anywhere.

Why is Lightning Coil's Damage Taken calculated before mitigation and increased Damage Taken from Abyssus after mitigation? What's the difference?

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Illviljan wrote:

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Dan_GGG wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

Oh shit, I had completely forgotten about Rat Cage. Torment was over too quickly. :P

Good to know that it doesn't use the same system. Is there ever a possibility of changing the conversion code for players or is it going to be stuck the way it is for the foreseeable future? It's certainly not necessarily impossible, especially since a lot of the conversion math has to be done up front in the case of >100% X -> Y conversion.

The conversion code isn't different for players. There are two separate mechanics here - one is "Damage Conversion", and the other is "Damage Taken". Monsters can take damage as other types as well, but I don't think we ever use it anywhere.

Why is Lightning Coil's Damage Taken calculated before mitigation and increased Damage Taken from Abyssus after mitigation? What's the difference?

because otherwise it would make no sense (for LC/Cloak of Flame). You would take the same amount of damage except it would be lightning/fire instead of phys, unless it would go through the mitigation round for the second time (which I believe is not possible)

the whole purpose of LC/CoF is to lower damage coming to armour formula (making armour more effective against big hits) and/or to be able to mitigate at least part of the big hit you are facing

the difference is also in wording. "damage taken" (after mitigation) vs "damage taken as" (before mitigation).

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Toshis8 wrote:

Actually elemental damages are much easier to mitigate than physical damage (hence why "Lightning coil" is so popular). And don't count endurance charges, because it also reduces elemental damage.

If endurance charges actually provide your build reduced damage from elemental stuff... Then your build isn't viable.

Endurance charges only provide normal elemental RESISTANCES. They can't let you break the cap. Since the entire game is balanced around having capped elemental resistances in the endgame, endurance charges, in practice, are exclusively for physical damage reduction. So that's not an excuse to remove them from your equation to make armour look worthless.

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Toshis8 wrote:

You need a total of 150000 armor. And which one is easier to get, 75% elemental resistance or 150000 armor? Actually armor is effective only against very small physical hits, like 100-500 damage. And vice versa, armor rating against strong physical hits is very ineffective.

Once you realize that there are fixed physical damage reduction (PDR) abilities, this equation changes DRAMATICALLY. Anyone who actually bothers to invest into armour, for instance, will take "Soul of Steel" which grants a +4% PDR right there. On top of that, each endurance charge is worth +4% PDR... And another +4% PDR if you decide to use Chaos Golem. Because of the divisor nature of how armour rating works, this makes getting that 75% mitigation much, MUCH easier for that 5k raw hit. Here's how it scales, and for a bonus, I'll show at what "raw hit size" does it compare to using a Taste of Hate. (Less than that hit, and using a Taste of Hate will actually increase your damage taken!)

• With +4% PDR: 122,414 AR (also beats Taste of Hate on hits of <2,871)
• 8% PDR: 101,515 AR (also beats Taste of Hate on hits of <3,032)
• 12% PDR: 85,135 AR (also beats Taste of Hate on hits of <3,149)
• 16% PDR: 71,951 AR (also beats Taste of Hate on hits of <3,233)
• 20% PDR: 61,111 AR (also beats Taste of Hate on hits of <3,291)
• 24% PDR: 52,041 AR (also beats Taste of Hate on hits of <3,327)
• 28% PDR: 44,340 AR (also beats Taste of Hate on hits of <3,345)
• 32% PDR: 37,719 AR (also beats Taste of Hate on hits of <3,345)

(Note: you can beat Taste of Hate with higher damage numbers by simply having more than enough armour to equal Lightning Coil for that much fixed PDR; at 101.5k armour and 32% fixed PDR? It's better than Taste of Hate on hits of 9,023 physical damage or less)

The above numbers get INCREASINGLY easy to reach once you learn how to actually build armour. (basics: actually put passives into it, don't use a gimmicky unique chest, and pack a granite flask of iron skin) the top few are even achievable through the use of Iron Reflexes.

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Illviljan wrote:

Why is Lightning Coil's Damage Taken calculated before mitigation and increased Damage Taken from Abyssus after mitigation? What's the difference?

On both sides of the hit, damage conversion is the first step in the calculation. Basic breakdown of the order:

• Attacker's Side: (in order: all these done BEFORE sending the numbers to the defender)
  • Apply all "adds xx damage" modifiers
  • Convert damage types
  • Apply "increased"/"decreased" bonuses
  • Apply "more"/"less" bonuses
• Defender's Side:
  • Convert incoming damage ("Damage taken as")
  • Apply mitigation (resists, Physical damage reduction)
  • Apply additive/subtractive ("-x damage taken"; Astramentis, Bramblejack, etc.)
  • Apply "increased"/"decreased" modifiers ("increased/reduced damage taken"; Shock, Abyssus, etc.)
  • Apply "more"/"less" changes ("more/less damage taken"; Arctic Armour, etc.)
  
  

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Ludvator wrote:

the difference is also in wording. "damage taken" (after mitigation) vs "damage taken as" (before mitigation).

Dan_GGG never did this distinction in this thread, which is why I asked.