Elemental Damage Taken As Physical

I think it would be good to see the potential to take a portion of elemental damage as physical in the game.

Generally speaking this will be a very bad move for builds, because it means that traditionally larger and harder to avoid hits will be taken as something that is traditionally harder to reduce. However I think it opens an interesting possibility for a number of currently existing items and play styles.

As an example, it allows you to trigger bramblejack on all non-chaos hits. It means that with specialisation, Immortal Flesh becomes "more useful". It means that -x physical damage taken from attacks becomes all the more desirable for certain builds.

It would also be away to reduce the effect of elemental curses and "ignores elemental resistances", and provide more meaning to explicit armor specialization.

:)
Sadly it can never happen.

The game engine only allows for conversion graphs that are DAGs. If there are any cycles (say, cold to fire, fire to cold) then it just breaks down.
Last edited by pneuma on Jan 12, 2016, 12:55:04 AM
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pneuma wrote:
Sadly it can never happen.

The game engine only allows for conversion graphs that are DAGs. If there are any cycles (say, cold to fire, fire to cold) then it just breaks down.


Interesting.

If conversion was still chest piece only it could still work, but then that would remove bramblejack as a possibility.

If conversion terminated (which it doesn't right now for skills at least) it could still work in a dag, however.

:)
Last edited by ihasmario on Jan 12, 2016, 1:02:49 AM
Actually elemental damages are much easier to mitigate than physical damage (hence why "Lightning coil" is so popular). And don't count endurance charges, because it also reduces elemental damage.

For example, there are two 5000 damage hits - one elemental another physical. You have elemental resistances capped at 75%, which reduces elemental damage by... 75% obvious, duh! But if you want to mitigate physical damage by 75% with armor rating like you do with elemental resistances, according to this formula:

where:
DR - physical damage reduction;
Draw - amount of physical damage


You need a total of 150000 armor. And which one is easier to get, 75% elemental resistance or 150000 armor? Actually armor is effective only against very small physical hits, like 100-500 damage. And vice versa, armor rating against strong physical hits is very ineffective.

P.S.
I was thinking about possible unique some time ago. A unique body armor which gives:

> Exceptionally large amount of armor rating (like 4000);
> Armor rating also works against elemental damage;
> Maximum base resistances are reduced to 30%
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
Last edited by Toshis8 on Jan 12, 2016, 3:47:40 AM
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pneuma wrote:
Sadly it can never happen.

The game engine only allows for conversion graphs that are DAGs. If there are any cycles (say, cold to fire, fire to cold) then it just breaks down.


with a diferent wording i think its posible say:

armor reduction formula olso apply to elemental damage
resistances becomes cero (good news to veil of the fail)
30% less life and ES

overall armor becomes a universal defence (except for chaos) but it lowers raw life pool making it more vulnerable to chaos and spike damage.

EDIT: just realised toshis sugested more or less the same :/


self found league fan

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/324242/page/1

Last edited by caboom on Jan 12, 2016, 8:21:50 AM
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pneuma wrote:
Sadly it can never happen.

The game engine only allows for conversion graphs that are DAGs. If there are any cycles (say, cold to fire, fire to cold) then it just breaks down.

This is true for the damage conversion mechanic, but damage taken actually works differently enough for it to be possible.

In fact we have some unique armour with Fire Damage taken as Physical already.

The difference is basically that conversion is an iterative process from one damage type to the next, so if it goes backwards there'll be an infinite loop. Damage taken is all calculated in one step though, so no loops are possible.
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Dan_GGG wrote:
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pneuma wrote:
Sadly it can never happen.

The game engine only allows for conversion graphs that are DAGs. If there are any cycles (say, cold to fire, fire to cold) then it just breaks down.

This is true for the damage conversion mechanic, but damage taken actually works differently enough for it to be possible.

In fact we have some unique armour with Fire Damage taken as Physical already.

The difference is basically that conversion is an iterative process from one damage type to the next, so if it goes backwards there'll be an infinite loop. Damage taken is all calculated in one step though, so no loops are possible.


That's very interesting, I hadn't thought about the "infinite loop" aspect of conversion going backwards. I guess if you had fire converted into chaos that was then converted back into fire, it would just keep going back and forth? Smart thinking, GGG.

The difference between player damage conversion and monster damage conversion is also interesting, and there is definitely room for more elemental to physical damage on armor. Maybe a body armour with a large amount of armor rating that had x% of elemental damage converted to physical?
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Maswasnos wrote:
The difference between player damage conversion and monster damage conversion is also interesting, and there is definitely room for more elemental to physical damage on armor. Maybe a body armour with a large amount of armor rating that had x% of elemental damage converted to physical?

Damage Taken isn't the same as monster Damage Conversion - it's still a separate mechanic. Monsters can have their damage converted in the normal way and it won't matter for the purposes of damage taken.

For example, a lot of the warbands have some of their physical damage converted to their respective elements. If I had a Mutewind (cold) warband, and gave them cold to fire conversion then that would follow damage conversion rules. I could still have a talisman that made me take fire damage as cold without causing an infinite loop if they hit me.
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Oh shit, I had completely forgotten about Rat Cage. Torment was over too quickly. :P

Good to know that it doesn't use the same system. Is there ever a possibility of changing the conversion code for players or is it going to be stuck the way it is for the foreseeable future? It's certainly not necessarily impossible, especially since a lot of the conversion math has to be done up front in the case of >100% X -> Y conversion.
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pneuma wrote:
Oh shit, I had completely forgotten about Rat Cage. Torment was over too quickly. :P

Good to know that it doesn't use the same system. Is there ever a possibility of changing the conversion code for players or is it going to be stuck the way it is for the foreseeable future? It's certainly not necessarily impossible, especially since a lot of the conversion math has to be done up front in the case of >100% X -> Y conversion.

The conversion code isn't different for players. There are two separate mechanics here - one is "Damage Conversion", and the other is "Damage Taken". Monsters can take damage as other types as well, but I don't think we ever use it anywhere.

I wouldn't be in favour of making Damage Conversion work like Damage Taken unless we had a really good reason.

Damage Conversion is a fairly ubiquitous mechanic found in all sorts of skills, monsters and items, so replacing it is no easy task, and has huge gameplay/balance implications. I think the result would also be unintuitive even if you weren't familiar with the current system.

For example, you'd expect to be able to use Cold to Fire on Ice Crash, right? Well Ice Crash gets its cold damage by converting a portion of your physical damage. We can then convert a portion of that cold damage to fire using the current, iterative code.

This wouldn't be possible if we changed these mechanics to "50% of physical damage dealt as cold" and "50% of cold damage dealt as fire". Both of these operations would be performed simultaneously on the initial physical hit. So we'd be trying to deal cold as fire before any cold damage exists.
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