Controlled Destruction/Void Manipulation downsides should be a less multiplier

I don't understand why it's only a 'reduced' penalty.

For Controlled Destruction, the downside is nearly meaningless for builds with high crit. You lose 100% base crit and get a juicy 44% more multiplier to base damage. Guess which one wins out ? The reduced penalty is less and less meaningful the more crit you stack.

For Void Manipulation, even with converted skills, the downside is simply laughable. The downside is like two regular nodes on the tree ? Wait what ?

Let's look at other multiplier gems from before 2.1:

1. slow projectiles. downside is LESS proj speed so you cant easily make it up
2. conc effect. downside is LESS AoE so you cant easily make it up

those two gems provide concrete downsides providing your skills with less clear speed in return for more damage.

these two new gems are simply blowing up DPS meters when you combine them for chaos skills. and controlled destruction can literally be used for any spell, whether or not you're crit or non-crit. with low crit (10%), you dont care that it's half of that instead. with high crit and power charges, the multiplier shits on the 100% base crit you lose (for spells it's usually 5-6% crit, big deal)

Wait, Void Manipulation is reduced Elemental Damage?
Fuck, I thought it was "less". I could have sworn it was.

+1 to the suggestions on both.

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Note that Concentrated Effect was already changed to have this behaviour (less area, more damage).

Increased Area of Effect needs to be changed as well (more area (with smaller values ofc)).

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

When I am not sure about Void Manipulation, I meant that I lack the knowledge of how Void Manipulation operates when it comes to converting elemental damage to chaos damage. I only have the perspective from converting physical damage to chaos damage.

well, lets assume 100% conversion (so consuming dark + infernal mantle)

lets say your fireball/magma orb/firestorm deals 100 damage and has 200% increases from tree/gear/etc

converted with no void manipulation, you get 300 chaos damage
converted with void manipulation, you get 100+175% = 275 chaos damage * 1.39 = 393 chaos damage

and void manipulation multiplies your chaos damage poison too.

it's a no-brainer for any build that uses any type of chaos damage as primary source and any type of poison mechanic.

I definitely agree that Void Manipulation should be a less penalty. Probably not a 25% one though; 20% seems okay.

When it comes to Controlled Destruction, I feel 100% less or "You cannot deal Critical Strikes" is a bad move, because I feel the random increases you get to crit should still do something. I also think 100% reduced critical strike chance is quite a severe penalty. I'd vote to keep it as is, so that it can completely remove crit if that's what the player wants, but if it does get a "less" penalty it should probably be 50% instead of 100%.

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

Now imagine having around 60-70% (could be more, but chose this example) chance to crit (without the help of Power Charges) based on the spell having base crit of 6%, in that case you only lose out 6% of out the 60-70% chance to crit pile.

So 900-1050% increase critical strike chance, without the help of power charges.

How?

And even if: with that level of crit investment, why not?

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

So 900-1050% increase critical strike chance, without the help of power charges.

How?

And even if: with that level of crit investment, why not?

20/20 crit chance support gem + a Dagger with implicit of 80% global crit chance AND 108% spell crit + 108% spell crit from ES shield + 450% crit chance from tree (both spell crit and normal crit chance work on spell too) = at least 900% crit chance



As for the question of why not, well why should void manipulation have a much severe drawback, while controlled destruction is left unchanged and making crit builds beyond broken. Both take a hit, or both remained unchanged. Controlled destruction was meant to be for non-crit builds, and coincidentally it came out the moment incinerate took a very heavy nerf to make up some of the loss it took from the balance change. There is other reasons, but I cannot mind read the dev's intention the whole way.

Edit: Forgot to include Maligaro Virtuosity, and amulets that can provide global crit chance to, so it can possibly be closer to 1000% crit chance.

Okay, so essentially full gear and passive tree commitment. I feel at that point one deserves to overcome the penalty.

What about if the penalty was 100% reduced critical strike chance and 33% reduced critical strike multiplier? I think that would fit the theme of the support better than a less penalty, while still making it hard to fit into traditional spell crit builds.

Void Manipulation needs a more severe drawback because all you need to do is add Poison and the support is double-dipping. Thus, it represents a much greater percentage.