Poison mechanic questions

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Vipermagi wrote:

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dephness wrote:

the poison talent is 4x better then vulnerability

Vulnerability is multiplicative, Increased Damage is not.

unless i'm wrong, 'More' the the multiplicative 'increased' is the additive.

Cursed enemies take 33% increased damage from Damage Over Time effects is what it says.

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Vipermagi wrote:

I already kinda explained the difference in my first post, but I can go into a little more detail. :)

Increased Damage is additive with your Increased and Reduced Damage, easy enough. These are attacker-side modifiers, applying to your Base Damage.

Vulnerability grants Increased Damage taken, which is a defender-side modifier. It is not part of your modifiers, but those of the enemy.

You launch an attack. Game calculates your base Damage * Inc+Red * More * Less etcetera, which leads to a Damage Dealt value. This value is then sent to the defender, who runs it through its Resistances and other mitigation methods, as well as any and all Damage Taken modifiers. Because these are two separate calculations, modifiers from these two calculations cannot be additive.

(they are different modifiers altogether, which also means they cannot stack additively :P )


Hope that all makes sense? If not, do tell!

Nice explanation! If I were you I would just give a wiki link :)

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Vipermagi wrote:

I already kinda explained the difference in my first post, but I can go into a little more detail. :)

Increased Damage is additive with your Increased and Reduced Damage, easy enough. These are attacker-side modifiers, applying to your Base Damage.

Vulnerability grants Increased Damage taken, which is a defender-side modifier. It is not part of your modifiers, but those of the enemy.

You launch an attack. Game calculates your base Damage * Inc+Red * More * Less etcetera, which leads to a Damage Dealt value. This value is then sent to the defender, who runs it through its Resistances and other mitigation methods, as well as any and all Damage Taken modifiers. Because these are two separate calculations, modifiers from these two calculations cannot be additive.

(they are different modifiers altogether, which also means they cannot stack additively :P )


Hope that all makes sense? If not, do tell!

ah so i was right, but i just wasn't thinking of the monster side of things. so i was wrong at the same time.

this makes vuln amazing for a viper build!

More simply it's just ID * MD * DT, where the abbreviations are increased damage, more damage, and damage taken respectively.

Each source is additive with other sources of the same category, so if you use for example arc - a lightning spell - you can get increased lightning damage, increased elemental damage, and increased spell damage, and they will add to each other to form one final multiplier - your ID.

MD is difficult to come by, by multiplies with your ID and other MD sources, making every point of MD very powerful when you have large amounts of ID. For example if you deal 100 base damage and have 100% ID from various sources, you will deal 200 damage. Add another 100% ID (200% ID total) and you'll get 300 damage. If, however, you get 100% MD and 100% ID instead of 200% ID, you'll deal 400 damage, because the bonuses multiply on each other instead of add.

DT is another powerful multiplier that can multiply with these mechanics, but again has limited sources, mainly curses and shock.

Many people say "X source is additive while Y is multiplicative", but they're really all additive with themselves (unless separate sources of MD, in which case they multiply on each other as well) and multiplicative with other types. The BEST damage output will be achieved by balancing ID, MD, and DT equally point for point (IE, for a "theoretical 300 point budget", you'd want 100% ID, 100% MD, and 100% DT to maximize your damage). Of course this isn't realistic, since you don't just get to "divide points" like that, but that is how the damage scales.

Vulnerability is particularly good for DoT attacks not only because it multiplies the DT side of the equation, which is limited but powerful, but also because it scales the attack twice - once on the initial hit, then again on the DoT portion. For Puncture, this is even more ridiculous, because it DOUBLE scales the dot portion of the attack: it increases the initial attack damage (because it is physical), then increases the DoT, which is based on that initial attack damage, two times - once because it is a DoT, and once because the dot itself is actually also physical damage. So it's pretty crazy for puncture.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Vulnerability is particularly good for DoT attacks not only because it multiplies the DT side of the equation, which is limited but powerful, but also because it scales the attack twice - once on the initial hit, then again on the DoT portion. For Puncture, this is even more ridiculous, because it DOUBLE scales the dot portion of the attack: it increases the initial attack damage (because it is physical), then increases the DoT, which is based on that initial attack damage, two times - once because it is a DoT, and once because the dot itself is actually also physical damage. So it's pretty crazy for puncture.

Same holds trues for Viper Strike now.


But it should be noted that Vulnerability's DoT damage taken on mobs stacks ADDITIVELY with Wither, so if you plan on using Wither at all in your build then Vulnerability becomes nearly useless.

I'm not sure about that, viper strike may not deal physical attack damage for the initial hit on the next update, and it certainly doesn't double-dip on the physical damage increase. Vulnerability is most certainly better for puncture than for viper strike - though viper strike still gets its best damage increase from vulnerability without a doubt (unless they change the initial hit, in which case vulnerability may become trash-tier for VS).

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Vipermagi wrote:

More Damage is not additive with More Damage, unless it comes from the same source.
Pain Attunement and Righteous Fire are multiplicative with eachother - Incinerate stacks are additive with eachother (but multiplicative with RF and PA).

That is why people say "More and Less are multiplicative". Because they are :P

Oh that's interesting, didn't know that. I'll edit my earlier post, but "multiplicative" is still misleading in that context for newer players. People need the bigger picture to understand I think.

I actually assumed this but I don't know. Does Frenzy double dip for poison/bleed?