77 different normal maps.

But at any time, anyone will only run a few, repeatedly.

When you first enter maps you have a wide variety of different maps, say 14 in the 68-69 level T1 and T2. But these are common and we can and will pick and choose the best tilesets to run. Progressing into higher tiers at this point is easy, too.

So we progress to higher tiers quite easily at this point, we open up T3 and T4, we now have 28 different maps but again we will pick and choose preferred tilesets, be it because of their level or because of the tileset itself. While there are 28 to choose from, the choice will again come down to 2 or 3 which we will run repeatedly.

We build a base of maps, accumulating +1s and the odd +2, new tilesets are added more become obsolete.

No matter what happens from here on, whether we turbo to the end few tiers with the use of funnelled currency, party pooling and zana mods or whether we stagnate, struggling, we are going to always be just running a handful of tilesets.

If I use myself as an example, currently pretty stagnant in the 75-80 range which is quite a large range. I might get the odd venture to 81-82 maps but I'll mostly be in the 75-80 range, anything <75 is of no interest.

77 different maps.
6 of which are above me so to speak.
45 of which are of no interest.
26 of which are in my range.

Now let's look at my range, the 26 maps in my range.
I'll have plenty of 75s, of the 6 75 tilesets, 3 I'll vendor up and never run, 3 I'll run sometimes.
The number of 76s I have will vary a lot, growing if I'm having good luck in the higher tiers, shrinking if not. Of the 5 76 tilesets, there's 2 I'll choose to run and 3 I'll run very rarely.
My 77s can vary between having several rows and having none, I'll run all 4 77 tielsets because at this tier I can't pick and choose.
There's 12 tilesets from 78-80, I'll see them rarely and won't pick and choose, if a +1 or +2 drops it will be ran.

So let's look at that again.
Where I spend my time I will repeatedly run 4 tilesets, have 2 tilesets I fall back on and 3 tilesets I'll occasionally just currency farm in. I'm mostly hoping for a drop to happen from another 8 tilesets.

OUT OF 77 available different maps.

This got me thinking, how much of the stigma of the map system, what makes people just stop playing, what makes the game just not fun, is actually being stuck in tier X-Y maps and how much is being STUCK IN TILESET X-Y MAPS?

The carrot while playing my 75s is there and I do chase that carrot, the +1, the +2, the carto.

But I realised, it's always a carrot, I know it is going to be the same fucking carrot even if I catch a bite of it.

I want to be chasing carrots, apples, toffee, beer, pizza, shortcake, cookies, banana, coffee, chips, kebab, sausage, bacon, toast.....

You know, even not progressing, being 'stuck' as it were, would be palatable.

YA DIG?

Edit: I just listened to today's podcast and this subject was touched on.
Qarl made an important point to the frequent request that we choose the tileset at any level. That point being that we'd just choose one that we see as the 'best' and repeat it and get bored of the game, forced variety is what prevents this boredom.

Qarl, I completely agree, but that is EXACTLY where the current system fails. Maps are either in abundant variety but obsolete as low level, not so obsolete in level but still in abundance so we can and do pick and repeat the 'best', or they are relevant but severely limited in variety.

We will always find our level, be it chaining the top 2 tiers, mostly in 79-80, or mostly in 76-77, etc. There is little to no 'forced variety' and where there is variety it's either obsolete or pick-chosen as 'best'.

This is where that 77 map dropping, the tier I'm most likely to be playing for 95% of my mapping, for example, being a Tropical Island, or a Gorge, or a Dungeon, or anything but a Plateau-Volcano-Bazaar-Necro, not by me choosing it to be, but by the variance: does exactly what you say you want the map system to do and prevents the boredom you don't want.

Seriously, YA DIG?

Agreed, but one has to acknowledge the amount of new tile-sets has really opened up the mapping experience by a huge margin in my opinion.

In the old PoE we had Shrine/shipyard/palace and courtyard.

The end.

currently we have the 77/78/79/80/81/82 tiers. Which provide the same or a higher experience ratio compared to the previous game-state. So advancements have been made on this front.

I think an "all tile-set any tier" system would be a huge fail btw.

Though, i think it was you or scrotie that mentioned this, a recipe that would convert a lower tier to a higher tier at the cost of a high-tier map would be elegant. But then the problem arises that lower tier bosses are notoriously(in most cases) docile compared to the higher up bosses.

Which would end up forcing a meta of everybody running lvl 77+ tropical islands for example. Not because they necessarily want to, but because its an easy risk vs reward sum.

There are ways around this though.

Just to say, yeah i agree, but GGG has made steps in the right direction on this front in my opinion.

Peace,

-Boem-

Added a rather important edit after listening to the podcast.

can i ask what podcast you are referring to?

State of exile perhaps, if so i have not watched today's episode.(but from what your writing, it should be a mighty interesting one...)

Well, any system i can think of in my mind (currently) always has a down-side attached to it, which will likely be cause for discomfort for players, just a different layer of players.

Immediately my mind goes to "why not let map drops as blank -tiers-"

So a tier 75 could drop, but it would not be attached to a tile-set, this would be randomized the moment you enter the map, without knowing beforehand what you will get.

However this undermines various systems already in place.

Peace,

-Boem-

(ill have a look at the podcast later or tomorrow and then i might comment further, but i agree it's an interesting topic)

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

Edit: I just listened to today's podcast and this subject was touched on.
Qarl made an important point to the frequent request that we choose the tileset at any level. That point being that we'd just choose one that we see as the 'best' and repeat it and get bored of the game, forced variety is what prevents this boredom.

So what is wrong with removing the choice?

All tile sets at any level but randomly chosen tile set.

"

Opinionated wrote:

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

Edit: I just listened to today's podcast and this subject was touched on.
Qarl made an important point to the frequent request that we choose the tileset at any level. That point being that we'd just choose one that we see as the 'best' and repeat it and get bored of the game, forced variety is what prevents this boredom.

So what is wrong with removing the choice?

All tile sets at any level but randomly chosen tile set.

That's my point.

1) flavor of a map + it's boss are designed around a tile-set

2) tile-sets favoritism (depending on the implementation this is a problem)

3) balance and difficulty curve (dito)

4) preparation is no longer an option for any given map thus a part of the strategical component of the game is removed (dito)

I hope we are not considering this is an option without consequences and could be implemented tomorrow without any further thought. Because it couldn't else it would have been done long ago.

Zana illustrates this perfectly.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

1) flavor of a map + it's boss are designed around a tile-set

2) tile-sets favoritism (depending on the implementation this is a problem)

3) balance and difficulty curve (dito)

4) preparation is no longer an option for any given map thus a part of the strategical component of the game is removed (dito)

I hope we are not considering this is an option without consequences and could be implemented tomorrow without any further thought. Because it couldn't else it would have been done long ago.

Zana illustrates this perfectly.

Peace,

-Boem-

1. Nothing changes here.

2. The tile set is randomly chosen.

3. Maybe. GGG can add a weight if necessary. Example: Tier 1 = 5% chance of Core. Tier 10 = 10% chance of Core. Personally, I wouldn't even worry about it. End game needs to be challenging.

4. So you start with a "blank" tier 1 map. You put it into the map device. The portals pop up with the zone name. Isn't this enough preparation time?

I'm not seeing any glaring consequences. Doesn't mean there aren't any.

Sorry if this is derailing anuhart.

Opinionated there is no outlined proposal of how to implement this, all of the issue's i noted are based on implementation.

1) is an issue if you get a lvl 80 tropical island, because the map tile-set + it's boss is designed to be a relatively easy encounter as opposed to residence tier 9 for example. The current tier system allows this ramp-up of difficulty because it is outlined and moves upwards.
(i am not implying there are no exceptions to that rule, but with a randomized system, there would be a lot more complaints on this front)

2) imply's tile-sets with linear tile-sets will be favored because they allow the fastest xp/hour ratio's.

Thus a negative experience will be attributed to a non-linear random roll. This is the opposite of that "hype" when your zana opens a high lvl strand or gorge.

3) Like mentioned in 1 this poses problem, though they could be worked with from my perspective, it would however mean a major investment on GGG's part towards the end-game, something they only recently have done.
(like giving the tropical boss more skills/ability's above tier 5 and even more above tier 10, seems reasonable but demands resources from the dev's and a functional system that allows this)

4) yes if that's how it worked, this would allow the prep time. But then you roll a map gmp/chain -res and you get a residence tile-set. Auto skip the boss room eh, bummer.

Again negative experiences.

Currently people roll their maps based on what they are expecting and what they think their character reasonably can cope with.

And i am sure there is more that i am missing at this point. I was simply pointing out it is not that straight forward and that it would cost resources, resources they only recently invested in the end-game.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

"

Opinionated wrote:

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

Edit: I just listened to today's podcast and this subject was touched on.
Qarl made an important point to the frequent request that we choose the tileset at any level. That point being that we'd just choose one that we see as the 'best' and repeat it and get bored of the game, forced variety is what prevents this boredom.

So what is wrong with removing the choice?

All tile sets at any level but randomly chosen tile set.

That's my point.

This is what I'm basing my discussion points on.

Continuing off of Boem's points:

1. Tropical Island may be easy even at level 80. Residence may be easy at level 68. It is my understanding that monsters scale directly off of level. So they use the same mechanics but damage and life values change. This problem could be "solved" with weighting.

2. Are you hyped because the map is linear or because it is high level? The high level map drop hype is still there. The linear tile set favoritism is the exact problem we are tackling. The goal is to diversify the tile sets being run.

3. I'm not sure if they need to go that far. Refer to the first point. I imagine a play test is the only way to judge the difficulty curve.

4. Isn't that the point of the map modifiers though? Risk vs reward. I feel like the less players are able to "cheese" the map modifiers the better. Seems like a necessary evil since the map modifiers offer a static "reward".