More Physical Damage and Physical to Lightning

No, it's very different, Ivkoto.

50% Increased Phys and 50% Increased Lightning on 100 Damage, 100% Phys to Light
Incorrect: 100 * 1.5 = 150 Phys -> 150 Lightning
150 * 1.5 = 225 Lightning Damage
Correct: 100 Phys -> 100 Lightning
100 * 2 = 200 Lightning Damage.
Last edited by Vipermagi on Jul 9, 2015, 1:25:12 PM
It's just so...I don't know, it just makes no sense. It's all converted to lightning, then increased by 50% increased Phys which it shouldn't be since it's no longer physical. It should be 100 phys = 100 lightning, 100 lightning * 1.5 increased lightning damage = 150 lightning, and that's it.

Don't get me wrong, the way it actually works gives increased damage which is a good thing, it just makes no sense.

It does let me reconsider my phys to lightning gems in my melee builds though. I avoided it because the conversion would lower my DPS since my +phys support is a lot higher than my +lightning.

Does the same thing apply to the Avatar of Fire keystone? That's another one I never found useful because of the way I thought conversion and +damage worked.
Last edited by MrSparkle001 on Jul 9, 2015, 2:55:43 PM
"
Vipermagi wrote:
No, it's very different, Ivkoto.

50% Increased Phys and 50% Increased Lightning on 100 Damage, 100% Phys to Light
Incorrect: 100 * 1.5 = 150 Phys -> 150 Lightning
150 * 1.5 = 225 Lightning Damage
Correct: 100 Phys -> 100 Lightning
100 * 2 = 200 Lightning Damage.



Wow... It seems that I had this wrong even after reading the explanation about 4 or 5 times...

So how does this work with 50% conversion?

100 phys => 50 phys + 50 light => 50 * 1.5 + 50 * 2 ?

"
MrSparkle001 wrote:
It's just so...I don't know, it just makes no sense. It's all converted to lightning, then increased by 50% increased Phys which it shouldn't be since it's no longer physical. It should be 100 phys = 100 lightning, 100 lightning * 1.5 increased lightning damage = 150 lightning, and that's it.

Don't get me wrong, the way it actually works gives increased damage which is a good thing, it just makes no sense.

It does let me reconsider my phys to lightning gems in my melee builds though. I avoided it because the conversion would lower my DPS since my +phys support is a lot higher than my +lightning.

Does the same thing apply to the Avatar of Fire keystone? That's another one I never found useful because of the way I thought conversion and +damage worked.


Converting too much of your phys damage into elemental will reduce your dps against targets with stacked resistance. Phys damage is possibly the best damage type in the game, since armour's formula makes it pretty weak.
"
ivkoto77777 wrote:


Wow... It seems that I had this wrong even after reading the explanation about 4 or 5 times...

So how does this work with 50% conversion?

100 phys => 50 phys + 50 light => 50 * 1.5 + 50 * 2 ?



It should be about 187 damage.

100 damage becomes 50 phys, 50 lightning.

50 phys, 50 lightning with +50% increased phys = 75 phys, 75 lightning because it affects both for some reason

75 phys, 75 lightning with +50% increased lightning = 75 phys, 112 lightning (rounded down)

That's how I see it now anyway.

Still makes no sense why it would work that way, and maybe it doesn't. Maybe I got it wrong.

"
ivkoto77777 wrote:
Converting too much of your phys damage into elemental will reduce your dps against targets with stacked resistance. Phys damage is possibly the best damage type in the game, since armour's formula makes it pretty weak.


It's good vs physical reflect mobs though, especially now that I know converting some of my physical damage won't lower my overall damage.
Last edited by MrSparkle001 on Jul 9, 2015, 3:49:46 PM
physical damage only grants you a certain amount of bonuses and only has a certain amount of good support gems (if you want to keep it 100% physical dmg).

but converting your damage to elemental, you gain from so many bonuses and it all stacks, as we're pointing out in this thread.

for instance, i have a high phys bow. i convert 100% of my damage to elemental, between fire and lightning (burning arrow and phys-to-lightning gem) and i gain WAAAAY more damage, because i can socket WED (which is the largest bonus i can get), and added fire dmg (plays off my high physical).
on my tree, i still gain the most amount of dmg by allocating physical damage boosts, but elemental damage boosts are almost as much. the way my tree is, they're both easily available to me. best part is the elemental damage boosts (not elemental damage with weapons) boosts my other sources of elemental damage, like my heralds (ash and lightning) etc.

to deal with the resistances you just need to socket a curse or two of penetration, like elemental weakness and flammability. wham bam thank you ma'am. im now much more damaging than what i'd be if i was pure physical. and im talking MUCH more damaging.

sure, elemental reflect will one shot you if you shoot your primary damaging skill into a group, but since they have auras which you can see, you socket a secondary source of dmg (like the skill you use to apply curses or just a pure physical dmg skill) to deal with them, since they are not terribly frequent
Last edited by xMustard on Jul 9, 2015, 8:27:05 PM
"
MrSparkle001 wrote:
"
ivkoto77777 wrote:
Wow... It seems that I had this wrong even after reading the explanation about 4 or 5 times...
So how does this work with 50% conversion?
100 phys => 50 phys + 50 light => 50 * 1.5 + 50 * 2 ?

It should be about 187 damage.

100 damage becomes 50 phys, 50 lightning.
50 phys, 50 lightning with +50% increased phys = 75 phys, 75 lightning because it affects both for some reason
75 phys, 75 lightning with +50% increased lightning = 75 phys, 112 lightning (rounded down)
That's how I see it now anyway.

Ivkoto is correct. Increased and Reduced type modifiers are always additive. 50 Phys benefits from 50% Increased Phys, 50 Lightning benefits from 50% Inc Phys + 50% Inc Lightning for a total of 100% Increased Damage.
"
Vipermagi wrote:
Ivkoto is correct. Increased and Reduced type modifiers are always additive. 50 Phys benefits from 50% Increased Phys, 50 Lightning benefits from 50% Inc Phys + 50% Inc Lightning for a total of 100% Increased Damage.


What you said and what Ivkoto said are different. His damage = 175 which is not 100% increased damage.

There's no way 50% conversion and 100% conversion are the same damage.

Oh wait I see what you're saying. I misunderstood what you meant by "a total of 100% Increased Damage." It's only 100% increased lightning damage, not total damage. And for some reason I was thinking increased phys happened before increased lightning. The increased damage modifiers are being applied to the base damage at the same time. So 50 phys + 50% increased phys damage = 75 phys damage, then 50 lightning + 50% increased phys +50% increased lightning = 100 lightning damage. 175 damage total, 75 is phys and 100 is lightning.

I better be right this time or I have no idea how this game handles this stuff.
Last edited by MrSparkle001 on Jul 10, 2015, 12:08:27 AM
If your weapon does 50-100 physical damage and lets say there are no other sources, with 50/50 conversion from the skill. And we have 100% phys increase and 100% light increases, keeping it simple too here.

First 50-100 divided 50/50, so 25-50 of both elements.
Then the increases come in

25-50 phys x 2 = 50-100 phys damage
25-50 light x 3 = 75-150 light damage

A 50% more melee physical damage support gem would add x 1.5 to both parts again.

Converted damage is treated just like the original source, except it also gets the benefit of its own element increases. It's not really that confusing once you understand it, and you can make more complicated calculations.

Also the extra 20% 'added as lightning' behaves in the exact same way as the converted 50%, and the 20% is scaled off the original pre-conversion 100% physical dmg, not the post conversion 50%. 'Added as' and 'converted to' are both forms of 'converted' damage in the game.

Read more here

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Damage_conversion
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MrSparkle001 wrote:
It's just so...I don't know, it just makes no sense. It's all converted to lightning, then increased by 50% increased Phys which it shouldn't be since it's no longer physical. It should be 100 phys = 100 lightning, 100 lightning * 1.5 increased lightning damage = 150 lightning, and that's it.

Don't get me wrong, the way it actually works gives increased damage which is a good thing, it just makes no sense.



the way youd want it to work is that all the stats that increase your phys work first and then it converts half to lightning, thats how youre hoping it would work rather than converting half to lightning and then your phys increases only applying to half of your damage. Its neither of those but those are the sort of obvious 2 methods that youd think it could be.

the way I look at it is that its sort of doing the first one that you want to happen but its also finding a way to make sure all your damage increases, including the ones to the converted lightning are additive with each other and not multiplicative. from that point of view it makes sense why its done that way and its a good thing, even if its not a way that would seem obvious at first.

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