Player feedback on trading (both sides welcome)

I was thinking about this again some more today and no matter what GGG does, including inaction I think the best option is what I originally suggested in the first post, integrate the current system into the game to remove the insecurity and the non "noob friendly" system.


As always some people want other things, some of which include automation. The problem with that is quite a few people, including myself hate the idea of turning the game into an AH simulator or a market where people HAVE TO constantly undercut the next person in order to make the sale.

I think something that isn't mentioned there is an opportunity cost, those willing to exit map or be online and play can be rewarded with a non automated system.

In an automated system anyone that can cut the price to the lowest number will be rewarded, to mean it just cheapens the whole thing by enabling anyone and everyone to easily make currency, including time not spent in the game.


People are well aware of D3's AH, yes it failed first and foremost because itemization sucked and gold inflation was terrible. But the biggest failure of a system with automation is being able to buy upgrades without ever really thinking about it or worrying what drops for you.


The other thing to mention is that poe.trade and procurement are NOT controversial topics. The only complaint of such systems are they they are 3rd party so by making them or integrating them into the game GGG removes that complaint, while not changing the goals/idea of what they originally had set out to do.

If GGG adds automation or an AH people will be pissed, so do you add what we kinda already have and improve it? Or add someone a few people want because they are lazy or can't play as much as most people that will piss people off?

I think the answer is pretty obvious.

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goetzjam wrote:

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davidnn5 wrote:

I posted pretty much this thread a few months ago and got quite a few shrugs. My thesis at the time was that as players mature into certain leagues, selling small value items becomes less worthwhile and over time new players basically get screwed as a result because they can't buy anything half reasonable (only exceptional). At the time I suggested that there needed to be a better-facilitated process for crappy to middling items, so they're worthwhile actually keeping and putting in a shop setup.

I maintain that view.

This is interesting you are saying if you start a month or two late in a temp league you can't get 1-5c items to buy and people are complaining that they can't sell those types of pieces (this might only be in standard, im not sure)

How fluent are you with using procurement\acquisition?

Also I understand this thread isn't the first or last to discuss trading, I was asked to make a separate one to discuss by a few people instead of derailing another thread.

Slow response (been playing) but by certain leagues I meant anything reasonably long-term - not an issue for 1-month, can be for 3-month, 6 months+ yeah definitely. I can buy/sell things just fine, but you can be sure I vendor a heap of things someone new to standard would probably like to buy. I won't stop a map for a few alts, and I'm not alone in that. If the trade was facilitated without me leaving the map, I'd put such items up and happily help people. On another wavelength, how many 5-links get vendored that could be sold cheaply to new players? I make a point to give a few things away in a1n every once in a while, but not everyone does.

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davidnn5 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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davidnn5 wrote:

I posted pretty much this thread a few months ago and got quite a few shrugs. My thesis at the time was that as players mature into certain leagues, selling small value items becomes less worthwhile and over time new players basically get screwed as a result because they can't buy anything half reasonable (only exceptional). At the time I suggested that there needed to be a better-facilitated process for crappy to middling items, so they're worthwhile actually keeping and putting in a shop setup.

I maintain that view.

This is interesting you are saying if you start a month or two late in a temp league you can't get 1-5c items to buy and people are complaining that they can't sell those types of pieces (this might only be in standard, im not sure)

How fluent are you with using procurement\acquisition?

Also I understand this thread isn't the first or last to discuss trading, I was asked to make a separate one to discuss by a few people instead of derailing another thread.

Slow response (been playing) but by certain leagues I meant anything reasonably long-term - not an issue for 1-month, can be for 3-month, 6 months+ yeah definitely. I can buy/sell things just fine, but you can be sure I vendor a heap of things someone new to standard would probably like to buy. I won't stop a map for a few alts, and I'm not alone in that. If the trade was facilitated without me leaving the map, I'd put such items up and happily help people. On another wavelength, how many 5-links get vendored that could be sold cheaply to new players? I make a point to give a few things away in a1n every once in a while, but not everyone does.

If it isn't worth your time to leave a map to complete a sale then why should you be rewarded with getting the currency for selling the item?

Only shitty 5 links should be getting vendored (2 handed weapons mainly) everything else is sellable at any point in the league, even if it is just 1 chaos orb or a couple of alchs.

Anything not worth 1 chaos orb for me basically isn't worth sitting on and anyone looking to spend less that that on an item shouldn't be wasting their time on trying to complete a transaction like it, but rather buy something better. This also plays into the inflation (if everyone could sell with 0 work at all) and the removal of caring what dropped for you AT ALL while leveling if you could without any work at all buy upgrades constantly and so cheap it wouldn't be a good thing.

I play a lot it takes a lot of time to trade,
so I think we need a new trading system.
Something that works.

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goetzjam wrote:

If it isn't worth your time to leave a map to complete a sale then why should you be rewarded with getting the currency for selling the item?

Only shitty 5 links should be getting vendored (2 handed weapons mainly) everything else is sellable at any point in the league, even if it is just 1 chaos orb or a couple of alchs.

Anything not worth 1 chaos orb for me basically isn't worth sitting on and anyone looking to spend less that that on an item shouldn't be wasting their time on trying to complete a transaction like it, but rather buy something better. This also plays into the inflation (if everyone could sell with 0 work at all) and the removal of caring what dropped for you AT ALL while leveling if you could without any work at all buy upgrades constantly and so cheap it wouldn't be a good thing.

I think your idea of 'rewarded' is fairly skewed - fuelled by a fairly apparent dislike of D3 RMAH tbh. It doesn't *hurt* me to vendor any item. Any value I could ascribe to that item is theoretical. In Standard, I may or may not get X chaos for a 5-link. Point is, I can probably make more chaos grinding maps than teaching new players to trade. Inflation is happening anyway, every single day in every league. Some leagues it's more obvious, that's all. But it certainly hurts that new player not to be able to buy a 5-link for 5 alts, if that's what I'd sell it for.

In 20 years, if the game's still around, anyone who started in 2013 will have a huge bunch of lvl 100s with godly gear. Should every player starting in 2035 have to grind the same amount of time as those players to get even (at which time they're even further ahead)? Is it okay that 'first in, best dressed' applies to 3-4 players in every league, but moreso in the more permanent leagues where people are holding thousands upon thousands of exalts in value of items?

That's the dichotomy. It's not easy to fix, but shunning trade facilitators in a trade-centric system ultimately helps the rich more - they are, after all, around more often and more interested in gaining theoretical wealth.

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goetzjam wrote:

If GGG adds automation or an AH people will be pissed, so do you add what we kinda already have and improve it? Or add someone a few people want because they are lazy or can't play as much as most people that will piss people off?

I think the answer is pretty obvious.

The thing you are getting here wrong is when it comes to majority, they want a easy and automated system to trade. So only minority will be pissed of that think that trading should be as time consuming/tedious, while most of other will love it. In fact that is what happened with POE trade, you had minority complaining that it is AH and majority love it because it made trading less time consuming.

The answer is pretty obvious, but I am not sure will you like it.

The best suggestion that I saw in this thread is from ScrotieMcB. The thing I would like is what GGG thought about, and that is adding NPC in your hideout that will be selling items for you. So that part to be somehow implemented in ScrotieMcB idea.

Been waiting on replying until some more (different) people gave some ideas and this just further IMO explains why I think this topic would be better discussed after we see divination cards and their effects.

People want all sorts of different things from an ARPG, anything from character building, character progression to min maxing items and time spent playing the game. I think its important to address all of these issues while looking at the bigger picture.

I think something is to be said vs D2's loot and PoE's loot. It clear that in D2 you could if you spent enough time find almost anything within a reasonable playtime, it also didn't hurt that the best way to farm for XP was boss runs either. Either way it seems most players, in this thread at least, that played D2 never had an issue with the fact you could trade items, but didn't feel like you were forced too.

Maybe its a change of times, maybe its that PoE offers more build playstyles and therefore demands more specific gear, honestly I am not 100% sure why people feel the need to trade as much in PoE compared to D2.

My dislike of the RMAH in D3 is not the only thing that prevents my distaste from an AH or any automated trading, its the fact that if you are doing anything automated the whole process becomes cheaper, you remove any attachment from items, people, ect it just becomes is XX worth XX, if so buy it, if not don't. Overall it cheapens the selling process much more then the buying one because as far as I can tell now, most people don't have an issue buying items (with the rare case of that person with that gear isn't online right now) they have an issue with "why should i leave this map to sell this item or why should I spend time to setup a shop" The answer is quite clear, typically its worth it. I wonder if anyone that is highly successful in temp leagues with shops can share their experiences, preferable someone that doesn't just get "lucky" with a T1 drop.

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In 20 years, if the game's still around, anyone who started in 2013 will have a huge bunch of lvl 100s with godly gear. Should every player starting in 2035 have to grind the same amount of time as those players to get even (at which time they're even further ahead)? Is it okay that 'first in, best dressed' applies to 3-4 players in every league, but moreso in the more permanent leagues where people are holding thousands upon thousands of exalts in value of items?

I won't really address this hypothetical situation because the game shouldn't have balance changes or any changes right now to predict what might happen in 20 years. In 20 years I don't suspect this game to be a F2P online game, I expect GGG moving onto another game all together.

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trading less time consuming

My suggestion would make trading less time consuming without comprimising a trading solution\system for one that isn't trading at all. Do you consider going to the store and buying what you want trading, no you consider it completing a transaction, if you remove the required player element in a transaction it is no longer trading.

Imagine going to walmart and using the self checkout system and trying to bargain with it for a different price, imagine how stupid you would look. The same can be applied to PoE with an automated system.



@mrtremere I don't think you or your mindset is too casual for PoE, I think its important to grasp the understanding and opinions of everyone when it comes to feedback and for GGG to sort out what they think best fits the game design they are setting out to do.

I know some people HATE the current trade system, some people hate any involvement in selling items, but ultimately it works, many of threads have popped up on reddit about people complaining poe.trade was not available in beta, to the point the most people realize how important it has become to the game. IMO it shows that people are just playing beta to play a better version of the game as IMO you don't need poe.trade in order to test 1-2 builds between resets, instead people are playing it like any other league, which is mainly why I stopped playing in beta.


I can say as much as I hate automation the idea of account bound items is 10 times worst and anyone that knows me or how much I hate automation can attest to the fact that I feel extremely against account bound items. One of D3's biggest mistakes in trying to correct it's itemization issue was to create this mentality that account bound everything was OK. I cannot imagine a successful ARPG without at least having the OPTION to trade items. Find that super rare unqiue or rare item with stats not useful to you? Welp too bad you are stuck with it. Wanna share some gear with a friend to help make leveling easier, too bad. Everything about an ARPG points to trading being something not only possible, but favorable for players.

If D3 would add the ability to trade items and change nothing else they would gain so much respect from me, but they won't because of this reason alone:

RMT

If they are not in control of it or the ability to make any money off of it, they have no reason as a company other then to help their fans get what they want to do it. It is a shame that a company like the current Blizzard was the one to make Diablo 3 as they've shown time after time money is more important then gameplay.


Again, I think divination cards will play a large role in future trade discussions.

I recognize there's a lot of valuable discussion here that can't be addressed in a single post, but let me throw out an alternate idea for the purpose of further fleshing out some issues. Please postpone serious judgment until you've fully considered the idea, and that way any issues that remain are likely weighty enough to matter.

Guild-oriented Trading. Normal trading as it is now ceases to exist. Players are allowed to trade within their guild at any time by means of an in-guild trading tab/feature or by the current system of player windows. Players cannot trade with other players outside their guild. Guilds may acquire limited numbers of trading tabs, which guild leaders can use to trade across guilds using a trade/barter system similar to what exists now. This simulates real-world trade more than anything else because it provides regulated free trade. There is potential in this idea to provide massively increased levels of participation and group interaction without having to close self-found off as an island altogether. It also allows GGG to keep tighter control by restricting trade to guilds and regulating guilds instead of hundreds of thousands of players. More of the effort is placed in the regulatory hands of guild leaders, and if GGG restricts guilds generally to # of members and length of time in a guild before a player gains trade privileges, the guild can largely regulate within itself.

Will this make trading harder? Yes. There's more of an entry barrier. Will there be player interaction? Much moreso. Would RMT decrease? At least in quantity it certainly would. GGG might want to do more to help newcomers find a place or provide things for them until they do. With the direction gem and other changes mentioned in this thread have been going, however, there's less of a gap than first appears. By limiting guild trade tabs, you put a cap on spam trade abuses. Guild leaders, possibly treasurers, still get a high level of trading and may be highly sought after for players who enjoy that aspect of the game. High-end remains the least changed by this because they are often already organized and in-trading. Low-level is harder to get started, but self-found or 'group self-found' become the baseline. Some issues that remain with any limitation of free person-to-person trading include how to keep people from dropping stuff outside Lioneye's and creating de-facto trading. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Again, I'm not proposing a "GGG needs to do this now!" cure-all, but I think this modification of the trade system can provide a good viewpoint for furthering the main thrust of this thread -feeling out sentiments and issues of the trade system from all sides.