Why the "You need more health" paradigm is bad

@Wispo

Can you please tell us why you play an ES build vs a life based build?

If you answer nothing else at least tell us that.

"

goetzjam wrote:

@Wispo

Can you please tell us why you play an ES build vs a life based build?

If you answer nothing else at least tell us that.

For a very simple reason: this game has shitty defences.

They where there in the past, elemental ones expecially... but we see a forever ongoing (sorry for english) of NERFS. Elemental attunement if i recall well, was a node that granted +5% to all max resist. In a second time, they passed it to 2%. Now it is totally gone. So -5%. Saffell frame. Before it was +5%, now +4%, so -1%. With awakening, inner force cluster will go away for a total of -21% of a max level purity, so let's say another 1% less

5+1+1=7

-7% in a game with already so high damage spikes it's NUTS

Moreover, i've spotted from the hardcore player's complaints of rip that this game has awful defences, so being a semi expert of the mechanics of these games, i have undestood that this is, i repeat, PATH OF LIFE NODES. In other words, the only reliable way (after countless NERFS) to HOPE to survive, is to have a large hit points pool. And large.... LARGE. Not even, say, 6k is sufficient, if experienced and well equipped players many times complain about a magnus or tunneltrap that one shots them in their NERFED kaom hearts. So why, after ALL life based, countless rippd (mainly from damage spikes) exiles, don't try with ES, that grants an hit points pool larger than life?

Here i am with that ES toon, that STILL DIES even having over double the average hit points of a life based exile.

And this, again, because of shitty defences (overnerfed ones)

Side note: if i don't reply to you some times, it's not because i "hate" you (you are certainly a good guy and there is NOT room for "hate" in a stupid video game, there are more important things in life) or because i want to make a mockery of you by ignoring your opinions. I don't reply because i see that 100% of your posts are implicitly directed to shield ggg from critics, instead of sincerely asking to yourself "MAYBE, at least for this/one time, this guy/girl can be right"?

@wispo

If you think I am not a critic of GGG you obviously have missed quite a few large post that I've made.

Specifically addressing issues like:

Divination cards, the grand scheme of selling people the illusion of creating something cool. Search for the post I've made one.

Aura changes, this one is still on the front page after I bumped it. The reduced mana removal only to somewhat substitute for a rarer, different color gem.

and just today I posted about the trade system

I'm not afraid or stray from criticizing GGG, that is where you are mistaken, however your biggest mistake is the acknowledgement of layered defenses.

You call the defenses shitty but you seem to be oblivious to the consequences of your choices.

Yes + max res on the tree was nerfed, now you can only get +1 fire\cold\lightning depending on where on the tree you plan to go. This was a result of multiple forms of testing +max res and ultimately removed because of the separate purity of elements that grant +max res when leveled. While almost no character but LL shavs can run all of or multiple purity auras, they enable parties to still benefit from +max res. This is improved with the removal of line of sight required for auras in beta.

+max res is probably the strongest defense in the game for elemental damage, mainly because of the effect it has for each point of +max res you get as it doesn't diminish at all.

Please site your complaints with Hardcore players complaining. I trust what I see much more then what I hear, if you know what I mean.

Are you calling yourself a semi-expert at this type of game? I think that stating that is much more then an overstatement, no offense. I don't even consider myself to be in the level of an expert, as I don't or haven't been the "go to" guy for pretty much anything related to the game.

Take someone like havoc, I would consider him an expert hardcore player, specifically in staying alive as hes reached level 100 multiple times. Now in a game where you say the defensive options suck is the same game where this player and many others have reached level 100 in a hardcore league, how is that possible?

The only way to hope to survive is by layering defenses. You cant just stack 11k es and expect to out live everything. That is effectively 5.5k worth of life as each point of es is worth 1/2 as much as a point of life would be. But even comparing it to a 5.5k life pool isn't fair because the life based character would have some form of layered defenses like armor or evasion mainly, but lets not forget health flask, and typically a good cwdt combo like I've urged you to try.

Those "overnerfed" mechanics were extremely powerful, if you've seen how they were used you'd agree, but time of +5 max res on tree is long gone, hopefully GGG tones fights down so you can't be expected to have more then the 75% cap res for most fight, but still keep boss fights like peity (in maps) challenging and requiring the proper resistance flask.

I urge you to go back and read and reply to any specific parts you think is incorrect, I'm not just defending the game company, I criticize it as well, but when you are blantly wrong about something I'm not going to sugar coat it either.

I know well the concept of layered defenses, there were even in titan quest and i live with it from over 8 years now. Problem are 2

1) even with layered defences, the defence is shit because of nerfs (but ggg and it's stupid elitistic oriented mind continue to give the very rich that can afford a shav to run multiple auras, even for defense and not only for attacking) and because of monsters hitting way too hard

2) too muck TEMPORARY defences (flasks). A reliable defense should be there all the time (immortal call excluded)

Goetz keeps going on about layered defenses and making assumptions about what people when they say they are ES or life based or armour or what have you.


What I mean personally when I say any of these things is just simplifying by taking the main stat to avoid rip and saying the character is based on that stat."Path of Life Nodes" is just shorthand for "Path of Defensive Nodes above all else"

Keep going on about your precious "layered defenses" Goetz because you lack the ability to infer meaning in what other people type.

Perhaps if I simplify it for you it will make more sense.


Character has 5k life, 1k ES, max resists, some armour and avoidance as much as possible. Character has leveled their Masters appropriately and uses their crafting options prodigiously. Character has CWDT standard setup with gems at appropriate levels given the life pool and mitigation stats, highest level Inc. Duration as well. Character is *n+8 levels above the content. Character has best flasks possible for the content expected in a zone. Character has passive points allocated to every single defensive node possible for them to get in their tree without spending absurd amounts of travel points for a single defensive node. Character is playing slow and steady, pursuing safety above all else. Character even has logout macro bound to a single keypress just in case. Let's even go so far as to say this character has used the clunky trade system to its fullest so character has much better than average gear.

Character dies in less than human reaction time to white or blue mobs. Lets say rhoas or chimeras given their potential to come from offscreen and bypass CWDT setups due to their coding. Poof! Change numbers and levels as much as you want and still RNG will line up and poof!

This is not an epic "oh shit" moment. This is not a good death. A death like this leaves the character feeling cheated. This isn't even getting into the numerous weird bugs and interactions which are bound to happen, nor is it addressing the issues which are bound to crop up in ANY online game.


Your point about Havoc making it to 100 more than once meaning the game is fine just shows how far you're willing to go to defend your position Goetz. Your information is incomplete, how many characters has Havoc lost at high level etc?

None of this changes that if your hero Havoc with all his game knowledge and great gear/passives can die to 3 blue rhoas after facetanking Abaxoth with all the mods of 1mhc weekend, something is wrong with the balance of the game. Something is seriously wrong. We could list so many top level and experienced players who've been cheated out of the good death it isn't even funny.

HC is all about the good death. Current mechanics cheat players out of the good death much too often, nearly enough to make HC barely worthwhile.


If GGG doesn't want players to ever feel safe that's fine and their decision to make. At this point it feels like every time you load into an instance you roll RIP dice anyway. Just don't call it balanced or reasonable. Call it RNG disguised as difficulty. Anything else and it leaves the player with a bad taste in their mouths.

I'll take you at your word that Awakening changes all this and give it another chance in a few days. I hope you're right, this game is amazing when you take away the horseshit.

BrainHP for president...

O Brain how you are wrong yet again.

"

Goetz keeps going on about layered defenses and making assumptions about what people when they say they are ES or life based or armour or what have you.

Its not an assumption on what @wispo's character is using. I can see every piece of his gear, his passive tree and his skill gems. Its like I am looking exactly at his character when I describe issues I am seeing with it.

With some logic I can also conclude that almost every single piece of life gear has some form of evasion or armor on it.

"

What I mean personally when I say any of these things is just simplifying by taking the main stat to avoid rip and saying the character is based on that stat."Path of Life Nodes" is just shorthand for "Path of Defensive Nodes above all else"

I mean what exactly are you suggesting by this comment. You can't deal damage if you are dead, you can't progress if you keep deing, so at some point you need defenses, at the same time there is a fine line between I need more life and I need more damage because I have breached the threshold of defenses to live in almost every scenario.

Many players struggle with this, I know I did 2 years ago. I got better by consistently trying NEW thing and watching others.

"

Keep going on about your precious "layered defenses" Goetz because you lack the ability to infer meaning in what other people type.

Ask him if he uses any form of layered defenses, he strait up said he doesn't because he thinks its all overnerfed shit. Thats a problem, the defensive options are there he refuses to use them.

"

This is not an epic "oh shit" moment. This is not a good death. A death like this leaves the character feeling cheated. This isn't even getting into the numerous weird bugs and interactions which are bound to happen, nor is it addressing the issues which are bound to crop up in ANY online game.

That is a very rare case and something that is being tuned down in beta. If you can see those mob types in maps, the question is why aren't you playing even more safe? What level map was that, what are the mods on the map, you are leaving out important aspects of the scenario that if left blank you can easily twist my words around when or if I say bullshit, you were specific at the start, be specific all the way thru.

"

Your point about Havoc making it to 100 more than once meaning the game is fine just shows how far you're willing to go to defend your position Goetz. Your information is incomplete, how many characters has Havoc lost at high level etc?

IDK, are you going to count his bloodrage suicide in the map lab? Hes not the only one, people rush to high to mid level 90s in softcore leagues as well. Theres 27 people in the 1 month league in SC that are level 95 or higher, that league has only been going on for 20 days, 20 freaking days. With the toughest challenges yet (weekends especially)

Yet you and him are going to complain about defenses in this game? You have no clue at all, how many level 90+ characters do you have, please answer honestly as I can't check your profile to find out.

"

None of this changes that if your hero Havoc with all his game knowledge and great gear/passives can die to 3 blue rhoas after facetanking Abaxoth with all the mods of 1mhc weekend, something is wrong with the balance of the game. Something is seriously wrong. We could list so many top level and experienced players who've been cheated out of the good death it isn't even funny.

Again what an anomoli, he went the whole last set of leagues without ripping at all, imagine that. You don't seem like a HC player to me and I know Wispo isn't so if these 1 off deaths happen once every month it shouldn't set you back that much, hell his character is level 82, thats like what 1 76 map worth of xp?

"

HC is all about the good death. Current mechanics cheat players out of the good death much too often, nearly enough to make HC barely worthwhile.

Yet so many people continue to play it, play league after league only deing rarely and they aren't the ones complaining here, no its left to SC players that have no clue what they are talking about.

"I've got 11k ES" but I take 2k damage from evangelist, well no fucking shit you got no other forms of defenses.

"

If GGG doesn't want players to ever feel safe that's fine and their decision to make. At this point it feels like every time you load into an instance you roll RIP dice anyway. Just don't call it balanced or reasonable. Call it RNG disguised as difficulty. Anything else and it leaves the player with a bad taste in their mouths.

There needs to be a fine line between feeling safe and powerful and having a challenge, with proper defenses there is that option for you, but you can't just stack life and or es and expect to live in Path of Exile, it just doesn't work.

"

I'll take you at your word that Awakening changes all this and give it another chance in a few days. I hope you're right, this game is amazing when you take away the horseshit.

Much less horseshit in beta. Like i've mentioned before when posting here in the feedback forums I take into account changes in beta as well.


@wispo

"

1) even with layered defences, the defence is shit because of nerfs (but ggg and it's stupid elitistic oriented mind continue to give the very rich that can afford a shav to run multiple auras, even for defense and not only for attacking) and because of monsters hitting way too hard

2) too muck TEMPORARY defences (flasks). A reliable defense should be there all the time (immortal call excluded)

You say its shit, yet I've explained it to you why it was necessary to change, at least acknowledge the fact that +max res is extremely powerful.

Flask are a wonderful system, unlike D2's spam (and taking up all your inventory space) and D3's spam and life globes that drop, PoE's flask system rewards players for killing monsters and moving along. Poe's flask system is one of the best defensive mechanics ever desgined. An always on defense is available, you can get regen, armor, evasion, block, dodge, ect. This one is specifically designed to help players react to larger chunks of damage (like boss fights or tough mobs)

I think its quite funny you mention immortal call yet you don't use it at all. Hell you don't even bother to use enduring cry which is a fantastic physical damage reduction you could have on your CWDT setup.

I urge you to try a life based build and stick with it. Do some research around the forums and find something that might fit your playstyle if anything based on what you are currently playing I think you could benefit from a life based caster using cloak of defiance and arctic armor.

Hell I'll even spot you 10-15 chaos to get you started with it and give you anything I don't need\want to help you out, what do you say are you willing to try a life based cloak caster?

Sorry Goetz, but i'm not NOOB enough to use a form of invincibility (IC) so cheap. In Titan quest i used the present forms of invincibility (example: 100% chance to dodge melee blows), but it was only because it required a MONSTRUOS investment in finding the right gear, and with the right stats. Here in PoE, instead, "you" press a button (on, worst, a trigger gem "presses it" for you) and boom... invulnerable to physical. Noobish like no other thing ;)

Life based build? And sorry... FOR WHAT PURPOSE? For dying 10x times than now with my CI witch, ALTHOUGH YOUR DEAR LAYERED DEFENCES? No thanks: back in times i had a shadow, now cancelled in a rage quit. It had 75% block. In a right minded guy, this means "you take 1 hit every 4, right"? But because the devs of this game live in costant fear of power creep, block is random and back in times i took 6 or even 7 blows IN A ROW. So i added enduring cry (4 charges) plus molten shell plus some armour by gear. Yellow roha, passes block, laugh at my armour. ONE SHOT.

Layered defences my .... (an obscene word at your choice), this game is pure shit defence wise

"

Sorry Goetz, but i'm not NOOB enough to use a form of invincibility (IC) so cheap. In Titan quest i used the present forms of invincibility (example: 100% chance to dodge melee blows), but it was only because it required a MONSTRUOS investment in finding the right gear, and with the right stats. Here in PoE, instead, "you" press a button (on, worst, a trigger gem "presses it" for you) and boom... invulnerable to physical. Noobish like no other thing ;)

If you don't want to use it don't but how dare you complain about defenses in this game when you refuse any and all forms of it aside from your luxurious ES stacking. You won't even use the % reduction from enduring cry?

"

Life based build? And sorry... FOR WHAT PURPOSE? For dying 10x times than now with my CI witch, ALTHOUGH YOUR DEAR LAYERED DEFENCES? No thanks: back in times i had a shadow, now cancelled in a rage quit. It had 75% block. In a right minded guy, this means "you take 1 hit every 4, right"? But because the devs of this game live in costant fear of power creep, block is random and back in times i took 6 or even 7 blows IN A ROW. So i added enduring cry (4 charges) plus molten shell plus some armour by gear. Yellow roha, passes block, laugh at my armour. ONE SHOT.

Yeah life builds, especially cloak of defiance casters are super squishy, that AA and MOM (complete shit) /s

"one shot" Yes lets only list part of the scenario in order to make people more sympathetic to your cause. Honestly I would love to see an hour of your regular gameplay in PoE, it honestly would be the most entertaining thing I would see all week.

"

Layered defences my .... (an obscene word at your choice), this game is pure shit defence wise

I'm sorry you feel that way, maybe one day you can come to a realization that this game doesn't suck as much as you make it out to be, although I highly doubt it will be anytime soon as you refuse to make a different character or have a different playstyle.

Honestly, I've offered you currency and help to make a better character and you refuse you are stubborn as hell and as such I cannot help you if you aren't willing to accept you need help. I don't think I'll bother wasting anymore time responding to your comments others have pointed out how wrong your assumptions are and even though Brain bashed me earlier he still is shitting on the idea that you think 11k es with no other defenses is complete shit.

Have fun and enjoy your time in wraeclast, may the rhoas ever be so forgiving to you in your games.

I ... want peole THAT I DON'T EVEN KNOW personally, don't know their names, their faces etc... sympathyze with me? [Removed by Support]

lvl 67 shadow, a little over 2,5k armour between gear and molten shell, plus 4 endurance charges (3 of the exile, 1 of the kaom sign). 75% block, 3.5k+ life.

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And not in a map, but in imperial gardens

[Removed by Support]