Elemental To Physical Conversion

"
silumit wrote:
"
Mark_GGG wrote:
The order is:
Physical > Lightning > Cold > Fire > Chaos
Damage of any type can be converted to any type further up the chain
Hmm someone please remind me what converts lightning to cold?


Nothing "yet".
"
silumit wrote:
"
Mark_GGG wrote:
The order is:
Physical > Lightning > Cold > Fire > Chaos
Damage of any type can be converted to any type further up the chain
Hmm someone please remind me what converts lightning to cold?


Three dragons most likely utilizes this mechanic behind the scenes.

Peace,

-Boem-
It is not easy to realize the monster in yourself, truly it is not easy to create purposefully.
It is easy to realize the virtue in yourself, truly it is easy to destroy.
Contemplate which is worth your time.
-Peace-
"
Boem wrote:
"
silumit wrote:
"
Mark_GGG wrote:
The order is:
Physical > Lightning > Cold > Fire > Chaos
Damage of any type can be converted to any type further up the chain
Hmm someone please remind me what converts lightning to cold?


Three dragons most likely utilizes this mechanic behind the scenes.

Peace,

-Boem-


No it only changes the status effects caused by damage.
"
Natharias wrote:

No it only changes the status effects caused by damage.


It obviously shifts the ailment to be utilized one tier in the list.

lightning freezes
cold burns
fire shocks

So it probably utilizes this mechanic to perform it's action is what i meant.

Hench the "behind the scenes".

Peace,

-Boem-

It is not easy to realize the monster in yourself, truly it is not easy to create purposefully.
It is easy to realize the virtue in yourself, truly it is easy to destroy.
Contemplate which is worth your time.
-Peace-
"
Boem wrote:
"
Natharias wrote:

No it only changes the status effects caused by damage.


It obviously shifts the ailment to be utilized one tier in the list.

lightning freezes
cold burns
fire shocks

So it probably utilizes this mechanic to perform it's action is what i meant.

Hench the "behind the scenes".

Peace,

-Boem-

except tha according to the list fire cannot be "shifted" into anything that shocks...
And worst change is putting almost all bosses in new version of maps into fucking small areas, where you can't kite well or dodge stuff. What a terrible idiot invented that I want say to him: dude flick you, seriously flick you very much.
Guys, you CAN have all conversions BUT that means changing the way they occur.

So if you have 100 Lightning + 100 Cold + 100 Fire, and have 50% Lightning to Cold; 50% Cold to Fire and 50% Fire to Lightning:
Currently - They are "dynamic" and you end up with 50 Lightning, 75 Cold and 175 Fire (and there is no conversion of Fire to Lightning due to infinite loops).
Also any passives that buff lightning or cold or fire or elemental are applied at every step.
So a 100% bonus to Lightning, Cold and Fire means you have 200 Lightning instead of 100, convert 100 of it to cold, adding to the 100 base cold and then doubling to 400 and then 200 of those are converted to the 100 base Fire who is then doubled to 600.
Ending up with 100 Lightning, 200 Cold and 600 Fire.

With my suggestion - you will end up back with 100 of each, because they grab the values BEFORE any conversions are done, and do ALL conversions simultaneously and independently.
With the 100% bonuses, they end up at 400 of each, because you'd buff the original to 200, and then convert 50% of that (100) to the other type after which those 100 get buffed too for a total of 400.
This is limited to double dipping though as each conversion is independent from each other.
So no loops.

So as long as GGG insists on the tripledipping+ of elemental conversion builds, you will never see a change to this.
To all the hypocrites in all the forums:
Step 1 - Why are you creating a thread about this subject again? Use the Search function!
Step 2 - Why are you necroing this thread? Back to Step 1
Last edited by Nurvus on Feb 19, 2015, 10:21:24 AM
"
silumit wrote:
"
Boem wrote:
"
Natharias wrote:

No it only changes the status effects caused by damage.


It obviously shifts the ailment to be utilized one tier in the list.

lightning freezes
cold burns
fire shocks

So it probably utilizes this mechanic to perform it's action is what i meant.

Hench the "behind the scenes".

Peace,

-Boem-

except tha according to the list fire cannot be "shifted" into anything that shocks...


I am assuming there is a distinction in the formula between status ailments and damage.

So damage cannot be looped back, but status ailments in themselves might not be limited by that.

I am just guessing btw, but three dragons was the first thing that comes to mind when considering lightning to cold conversion.

Peace,

-Boem-
It is not easy to realize the monster in yourself, truly it is not easy to create purposefully.
It is easy to realize the virtue in yourself, truly it is easy to destroy.
Contemplate which is worth your time.
-Peace-
"
Boem wrote:

I am assuming there is a distinction in the formula between status ailments and damage.

So damage cannot be looped back, but status ailments in themselves might not be limited by that.

I am just guessing btw, but three dragons was the first thing that comes to mind when considering lightning to cold conversion.

Peace,

-Boem-


That's exactly what I already said.

Damage =/= status effect.

Three Dragons just changes what the damage is allowed to apply.
"
Nurvus wrote:
So if you have 100 Lightning + 100 Cold + 100 Fire, and have 50% Lightning to Cold; 50% Cold to Fire and 50% Fire to Lightning:
Currently - They are "dynamic" and you end up with 50 Lightning, 75 Cold and 175 Fire (and there is no conversion of Fire to Lightning due to infinite loops).
Also any passives that buff lightning or cold or fire or elemental are applied at every step.
So a 100% bonus to Lightning, Cold and Fire means you have 200 Lightning instead of 100, convert 100 of it to cold, adding to the 100 base cold and then doubling to 400 and then 200 of those are converted to the 100 base Fire who is then doubled to 600.
Ending up with 100 Lightning, 200 Cold and 600 Fire.
That's not how damage modifiers are applied (in general). Unless you're exclusively dealing with "more" modifiers that are multiplicative in all cases, this is wrong. Additive ("increased") modifiers do not become multiplicative just because damage conversion happens - this is very important for balance. Assuming your 100% bonuses to each damage type are "increased" the actual maths is:
Lightning: 100 base - 50 lost to conversion = 50, affected by 100% increased lightning = 100 lightning.
Total 100 lightning damage
Cold: 100 base - 50 lost to conversion = 50, affected by 100% increased cold = 100 cold, plus
50 base lightning converted to cold - 50% lost to conversion = 25 cold from lightning, affected by 100% increased lightning + 100% increased cold = 200% incraese = 75 cold damage from lightning
Total 100 + 75 = 175 cold damage
Fire: 100 base fire (no conversion from fire->lightning, so none lost), affected by 100% increased fire = 200 fire.
50 base cold converted to fire, affected by 100% increased fire and 100% increased cold = 200% increase = 150 fire damage from cold.
25 base lightning convereted to fire via cold affected by 100% increased fire, 100% increased cold, and 100% increased lightning = 300% increase = 100 fire damage from lightning (via cold).
Total 200 + 150 + 100 = 450 fire damage

I did that all quickly in my head, so apologies if I screwed up my maths at some point - someone will no doubt call me on it pretty quick if that's the case. But it should still get the concept across - additive modifiers are still additive when applying to converted damage.

"
Nurvus wrote:
With my suggestion - you will end up back with 100 of each, because they grab the values BEFORE any conversions are done, and do ALL conversions simultaneously and independently.
With the 100% bonuses, they end up at 400 of each, because you'd buff the original to 200, and then convert 50% of that (100) to the other type after which those 100 get buffed too for a total of 400.
This is limited to double dipping though as each conversion is independent from each other.
So no loops.
Your suggestion, unless I'm completely misunderstanding it, fails the basic test of "Cold to Fire support intuitively should apply to Glacial Hammer". It's necessary for conversions to be able to affect converted damage for us to meet this base expected behaviour (among others).

No, three dragons has nothing at all to do with this system.

"
silumit wrote:
"
Mark_GGG wrote:
The order is:
Physical > Lightning > Cold > Fire > Chaos
Damage of any type can be converted to any type further up the chain
Hmm someone please remind me what converts lightning to cold?
Nothing currently in game uses the stat, but it exists. We had to put them all in together when I rebuilt the damage stats system (and thus choose an order, which was based on some stuff that was planned at that time), because doing it without them in place and adding them later would have meant I had to redo a lot of that work when they inevitably happened. There are stats for conversion from every non-chaos type to every type further up the chain. Not all of them are currently used.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Feb 19, 2015, 7:31:08 PM
"
Mark_GGG wrote:
"
Nurvus wrote:
So if you have 100 Lightning + 100 Cold + 100 Fire, and have 50% Lightning to Cold; 50% Cold to Fire and 50% Fire to Lightning:
Currently - They are "dynamic" and you end up with 50 Lightning, 75 Cold and 175 Fire (and there is no conversion of Fire to Lightning due to infinite loops).
Also any passives that buff lightning or cold or fire or elemental are applied at every step.
So a 100% bonus to Lightning, Cold and Fire means you have 200 Lightning instead of 100, convert 100 of it to cold, adding to the 100 base cold and then doubling to 400 and then 200 of those are converted to the 100 base Fire who is then doubled to 600.
Ending up with 100 Lightning, 200 Cold and 600 Fire.
That's not how damage modifiers are applied (in general). Unless you're exclusively dealing with "more" modifiers that are multiplicative in all cases, this is wrong. Additive ("increased") modifiers do not become multiplicative just because damage conversion happens - this is very important for balance. Assuming your 100% bonuses to each damage type are "increased" the actual maths is:
Lightning: 100 base - 50 lost to conversion = 50, affected by 100% increased lightning = 100 lightning.
Total 100 lightning damage
Cold: 100 base - 50 lost to conversion = 50, affected by 100% increased cold = 100 cold, plus
50 base lightning converted to cold - 50% lost to conversion = 25 cold from lightning, affected by 100% increased lightning + 100% increased cold = 200% incraese = 75 cold damage from lightning
Total 100 + 75 = 175 cold damage
Fire: 100 base fire (no conversion from fire->lightning, so none lost), affected by 100% increased fire = 200 fire.
50 base cold converted to fire, affected by 100% increased fire and 100% increased cold = 200% increase = 150 fire damage from cold.
25 base lightning convereted to fire via cold affected by 100% increased fire, 100% increased cold, and 100% increased lightning = 300% increase = 100 fire damage from lightning (via cold).
Total 200 + 150 + 100 = 450 fire damage

I did that all quickly in my head, so apologies if I screwed up my maths at some point - someone will no doubt call me on it pretty quick if that's the case. But it should still get the concept across - additive modifiers are still additive when applying to converted damage.

<snip>


Math looks good.

But here's something I want to know (and I'll simplify the example a bit):

100 fire
100 cold

50% Cold converted to fire.
100% inc cold damage
100% inc fire damage
100% inc elemental damage.
-----
100 fire
50 fire-cum-cold
50 cold.

100 Fire + 100% fire + 100% ele = 300 fire
50 cold + 100% cold + 100% ele = 75 cold

BUT
Does the fire conversion double dip on the elemental damage multiplier?
50 cold +100% +100% ele = 75 cold-> 75 fire
75 fire+ 100% + 100% ele =225 fire? (Not sure if the math is right there, but hopefully you get the idea.)

The answer is 75 cold, but do we get 525 fire or 450 fire?
"If you’re incompetent, you can’t know you’re incompetent. […] the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is." ~David Dunning
Last edited by TikoXi on Feb 20, 2015, 8:26:05 AM

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info