Elemental To Physical Conversion

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ScrotieMcB wrote:
Infinite loops are bad. Once the game allows conversion of A to B, it cannot allow B to A because of how it calculates things.

You will never see:
Anything to Physical
Chaos to anything
Fire to anything, except Fire to Chaos
Scrotie is correct. The order is:
Physical > Lightning > Cold > Fire > Chaos
Damage of any type can be converted to any type further up the chain, but never further back, because that would allow infinite loops of damage being converted.
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Nurvus wrote:
So if you have 100 Lightning + 100 Cold + 100 Fire, and have 50% Lightning to Cold; 50% Cold to Fire and 50% Fire to Lightning:
Currently - They are "dynamic" and you end up with 50 Lightning, 75 Cold and 175 Fire (and there is no conversion of Fire to Lightning due to infinite loops).
Also any passives that buff lightning or cold or fire or elemental are applied at every step.
So a 100% bonus to Lightning, Cold and Fire means you have 200 Lightning instead of 100, convert 100 of it to cold, adding to the 100 base cold and then doubling to 400 and then 200 of those are converted to the 100 base Fire who is then doubled to 600.
Ending up with 100 Lightning, 200 Cold and 600 Fire.
That's not how damage modifiers are applied (in general). Unless you're exclusively dealing with "more" modifiers that are multiplicative in all cases, this is wrong. Additive ("increased") modifiers do not become multiplicative just because damage conversion happens - this is very important for balance. Assuming your 100% bonuses to each damage type are "increased" the actual maths is:
Lightning: 100 base - 50 lost to conversion = 50, affected by 100% increased lightning = 100 lightning.
Total 100 lightning damage
Cold: 100 base - 50 lost to conversion = 50, affected by 100% increased cold = 100 cold, plus
50 base lightning converted to cold - 50% lost to conversion = 25 cold from lightning, affected by 100% increased lightning + 100% increased cold = 200% incraese = 75 cold damage from lightning
Total 100 + 75 = 175 cold damage
Fire: 100 base fire (no conversion from fire->lightning, so none lost), affected by 100% increased fire = 200 fire.
50 base cold converted to fire, affected by 100% increased fire and 100% increased cold = 200% increase = 150 fire damage from cold.
25 base lightning convereted to fire via cold affected by 100% increased fire, 100% increased cold, and 100% increased lightning = 300% increase = 100 fire damage from lightning (via cold).
Total 200 + 150 + 100 = 450 fire damage

I did that all quickly in my head, so apologies if I screwed up my maths at some point - someone will no doubt call me on it pretty quick if that's the case. But it should still get the concept across - additive modifiers are still additive when applying to converted damage.

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Nurvus wrote:
With my suggestion - you will end up back with 100 of each, because they grab the values BEFORE any conversions are done, and do ALL conversions simultaneously and independently.
With the 100% bonuses, they end up at 400 of each, because you'd buff the original to 200, and then convert 50% of that (100) to the other type after which those 100 get buffed too for a total of 400.
This is limited to double dipping though as each conversion is independent from each other.
So no loops.
Your suggestion, unless I'm completely misunderstanding it, fails the basic test of "Cold to Fire support intuitively should apply to Glacial Hammer". It's necessary for conversions to be able to affect converted damage for us to meet this base expected behaviour (among others).

No, three dragons has nothing at all to do with this system.

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silumit wrote:
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Mark_GGG wrote:
The order is:
Physical > Lightning > Cold > Fire > Chaos
Damage of any type can be converted to any type further up the chain
Hmm someone please remind me what converts lightning to cold?
Nothing currently in game uses the stat, but it exists. We had to put them all in together when I rebuilt the damage stats system (and thus choose an order, which was based on some stuff that was planned at that time), because doing it without them in place and adding them later would have meant I had to redo a lot of that work when they inevitably happened. There are stats for conversion from every non-chaos type to every type further up the chain. Not all of them are currently used.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Feb 19, 2015, 7:31:08 PM
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Vipermagi wrote:
Conversion (and Damage Based On) occurs before all multipliers.
Also, you halved your Cold Damage twice :)

100 Fire Damage
100 Cold Damage

50% Cold to Fire -> 100 Fire, 50 Fire/Cold, 50 Cold Damage

100% inc Cold/Fire/Ele Damage:
100 Fire benefits from Fire/Ele:
100 * (1 + 1 + 1) = 300 Fire Damage

50 Fire/Cold benefits from Fire/Ele/Cold:
50 * (1 + 1 + 1 + 1) = 200 Fire

50 Cold benefits from Cold/Ele:
50 * (1 + 1 + 1) = 150 Cold

You'll deal 500 Fire Damage and 150 Cold Damage.

So to answer your question: it's neither 525 nor 450.
This is correct - note that in my example I always listed the base damage from conversion, then one list of all the modifiers to all types - e.g:
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Mark_GGG wrote:
50 base lightning converted to cold - 50% lost to conversion = 25 cold from lightning, affected by 100% increased lightning + 100% increased cold = 200% incraese = 75 cold damage from lightning


An increased elemental damage bonus, if present would also be in that line. It would not and could not be in there twice.

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