Mechanics thread

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sprawl15 wrote:

Does anyone know how Enfeeble interacts with enemies with damage conversion? For reference, Mark_GGG's post about how damage conversion is calculated:

Spoiler

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Mark_GGG wrote:

I have glacial hammer converting 50% of my physical damage to cold damage, and Cold to Fire converting 50% of my cold damage to fire damage.
Lets say my weapon deals 100 physical damage (in actuality there'll be two numbers, an minimum and a maximum, but we only need to do the maths once for the example, it's applied exactly the same to both).

I have:
10% Increased Physical Damage
20% Increased Elemental Damage
5% Increased Cold Damage
15% Increased Fire Damage

My weapon's base damage is 100 physical.
50% of this will be converted to cold
50% of that (25% of the total) will be converted again to fire.

The physical damage will be affected only by the physical damage increase, for a 10% increase.

The cold damage will be affected by physical, elemental and cold increases, for a total 35% increase (10 + 20 + 5).

The fire damage is affected by physical, elemental, cold and fire increases, for a total 50% increase (10 + 20 + 5 + 15).


Physical:
50 of the base damage ends up being physical, with a 10% increase applied = 55 Physical Damage

Cold:
25 of the base damage ends up being cold, with a 35% increase applied = 34 Cold Damage (33.75 rounds up)

Fire:
25 of the base damage ends up being fire, with a 50% increase applied = 38 Fire Damage (37.5 rounds up)

Basically, where in this calculation does Enfeeble apply? I can see one of three ways:

1) It simply functions as a 'global' damage reduction category, and -25% is added in each line to the +% modifiers.

2) It applies locally to the mob, reducing the base damage before conversion from 100 to 75 before any splitting/modifiers are applied.

3) It reduces each category of modifiers by 25% separately; you now have -15% physical, -5% elemental, -20% cold, -10% fire.

Under method 1, it reduces the final damage from 127 to 95.25. Under method 2, it would reduce the final damage to 67. Under method 3 it would reduce it to 70. I would assume method 1 is the way it works, but I could see it working the other ways, considering how strongly damage conversion can ramp up with +% modifiers.

It's very simple, I'm surprised you didn't think of the 4th option! It's like #2, except it applies AFTER all damage is calculated.

When you have Enfeeble the game simply looks at what your total damage hit would have been then reduces it by 25%. It does not get applied separately to each modifier. It's extremely literal, reduces damage by 25%. Your "damage" is calculated, then reduced by 25%. I guess technically it could work like #2 with the current wording but then it would be kind of "sneaky".

It seems they try to make things work the way they sound like they should without "hiding" too many things under the hood. I think reducing damage prior to calculations would be like that. When you think of your "damage", you don't think about base numbers, you think about your actual output, so that is what Enfeeble reduces.

Once again, PoE is extremely literal in it's wording. If it were to work like your #1 or #3 examples Enfeeble would read, "Reduces all damage increasing modifiers on the target by 25%".

If I'm wrong I apologize, I will always concede that it's possible I'm misremembering something I've read.

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Litheum wrote:

Would be nice to add a section that explains how the various "% increase fire/cold/Light" "on weapons" "elemental damage" "adds X-Y" work.

The guide covers loosely that weapon physical etc apply first.....but there is a lot more to it. And the example using all physical increase doesnt help. A brekdown of terms, and a few examples would be great.

I'm not sure what it is you don't understand but I'll try to explain. "Increased" mods are added together then multiplied against whatever base number they are applicable to. "More" mods are always multiplied against a base number individually.

So if you had 2x 10% Increased Elemental Damage mods you would essentially have 1x 20% Increased Elemental Damage mod.

If you had 1x 10% Weapon Elemental Damage and 1x Elemental Damage, even though they are worded differently, as long as they can both be applied they would be added the same way to essentially be a +20% damage mod to whatever it is they are affecting.

If it's a spell, naturally the 10% Weapon Elemental Damage mod wouldn't apply so you wouldn't add it and only use the straight up 10% Elemental Damage mod. As you can see, the additive factor of "increased" worded mods depends on what it is you are applying them to (more on this in the big example in my post after this).

If you had 3x 5% More Elemental Damage mods you wouldn't have a 15% More mod, just 3 separate ones for the calculation.

100 Elemental Damage Weapon Skill (Like Elemental Hit, if it's something with Physical converted to Elemental would be done a little differently which can be seen in my next post).

100 * 1.2 * 1.05 * 1.05 * 1.05 = 139

This is how I believe it works.

I used to think +Integer increase mods were applied first and then +Percent mods but I don't think that is true, only when the Integer mod is applying to it's own item, like on a weapon, is it added first before percent mods I think.

Otherwise, an Integer mod (1-4 Lightning Damage) is increased by any mods that would affect it (Weapon Elemental or straight up Elemental) and then added.

You can see this (and everything I explained here) happen in my post below with a much bigger example.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

The physical damage will be affected only by the physical damage increase, for a 10% increase.

The cold damage will be affected by physical, elemental and cold increases, for a total 35% increase (10 + 20 + 5).

The fire damage is affected by physical, elemental, cold and fire increases, for a total 50% increase (10 + 20 + 5 + 15).

Just wanted to touch on this bit quick also. I was always under the impression that "Increased" mods that were different from each other (worded differently) did not add together, only "like" mods added together.

So I always thought that having 50% Increased Weapon Elemental Damage and 50% Increased Elemental Damage would be multiplied against a base number separately but according to Mark they are indeed added together to be 100% as long as whatever the base number is affected by those kinds of increases, like Elemental Hit gem.

Thank you for finally clearing that up for me.

EDIT:
Crud, I did it again. I get so into posting I forget I was the last poster already, sorry for double post.

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Zakaluka wrote:

An example: Lightning Strike linked with Weapon Elemental Damage and Melee Physical Damage.

Assume the player is wielding a weapon that does 100 damage every time.
Player has Catalyze, for 50% increased elemental damage with weapons,
And a total of 40% increased physical damage (from strength, passives, and the LS skill bonus)
Assume Weapon Elemental Damage adds "60% more elemental damage with weapons"
Assume Melee Physical Damage add "30% more melee physical damage"
Also assume the player is wearing a ring that adds 4 lightning damage.

There is no "first step" and there is no "last step". The whole calculation happens at once. Each component of the damage goes through this process:

base * (1 + %increase + %increase) * (1 + %more) * (1 + %more)
Once for physical damage, once for cold, once for lit, fire, chaos.

Okay, so on to the example.
1) Physi remaining after the conversion: 100 * 50% * (1 + 40% [IPD]) * (1 + 30% [MPD]) = 91 physi.
2) Lightning converted from physi. All physical bonuses apply as well as all lightning bonuses, because the damage is physi at first but then becomes lit: 100 * 50% * (1 + 40% [IPD] + 50% [catalyze]) * (1 + 30% [MPD]) * (1 + 60% [WED]) = 198 lit
3) Lightning damage from accessories: 4 * (1 + 50% [catalyze]) * (1 + 60% [WED]) = 10 lit

Total damage: 91 phys, 208 lit.

So the thing to take away from this is that all of the mods apply to BASE numbers.

The way I personally was doing before was applying mods to Physical, getting an answer, then doing the conversion. I was ending up with different numbers than you and Mark. I now see that I was wrong.

In reality, what the game does is take the 100 Physical damage, convert 50% of it to Lightning making it 50 Lightning damage.

So now you have 100 and 50 to apply the mods to.
It's very simple when you look at it the way Mark did it in his post here...


That shows that he took the 100 Physical, converted 50% of it to Cold (total now 50 Physical / 50 Cold) and then converted 50% of that Cold to Fire (total now 50 Physical / 25 Cold / 25 Fire). He then took the 50/25/25 and applied any applicable mobs to those numbers.

I'll break down your example exactly as Mark did it so people can relate the 2 posts and maybe understand it better. The big difference between the examples is that we are working with the "more" type mods in this one as well as a +Integer mod.

Here are the mods from your example:
50% Increased Weapon Elemental Damage
40% Increased Physical Damage
60% More Weapon Elemental Damage (Weapon Elemental Damage Gem)
30% More Physical Damage (Melee Physical Damage Gem)
+4 Lightning Damage Integer

Using a weapon with a base damage of 100 Physical
50% of this will be converted to Lightning via Lightning Strike skill

The Physical Damage will be affected by the Physical Damage increase and Physical Damage Gem, for a 40% * 30% increase (remember 1 is an "increased" mod and the other is a "more" mod, meaning they aren't additive with each other).

The Lightning Damage will be affected by the Physical increase / Physical Gem and Elemental Weapon increase / Elemental Weapon Gem, for a 90% * 60% * 30% increase (2 of the mods are "increased" mods so we add them: 50 + 40 = 90. The last 2 mods applicable here are "more" mods so they are multiplied).

The Lightning Integer will be affected by Elemental Weapon Damage increase and Weapon Elemental Damage Gem, since it adds itself to the weapon being using for the attack skill, for an increase of 50% * 60%

Physical:
50 of the base damage ends up being Physical (as shown at the start due to the conversion from Lightning Strike), with a 40% * 30% increase applied = 91 Physical Damage (50 * 1.4 * 1.3 = 91)

Lightning:
50 of the base damage ends up being Lightning, with a 90% * 60% * 30% increase applied = 198 Lightning Damage (50 * 1.9 * 1.6 * 1.3 = 197.6)

+4 Lightning Damage Integer Mod:
Is increased by 50% * 60%
4 * 1.5 * 1.6 = 9.6 or +10 Lightning Damage
198 Lightning + 10 Lightning = 208 Lightning Damage

Total Damage:
91 Physical
208 Lightning

"

Glowyrm wrote:

"

sprawl15 wrote:

Does anyone know how Enfeeble interacts with enemies with damage conversion? For reference, Mark_GGG's post about how damage conversion is calculated:

Spoiler

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

I have glacial hammer converting 50% of my physical damage to cold damage, and Cold to Fire converting 50% of my cold damage to fire damage.
Lets say my weapon deals 100 physical damage (in actuality there'll be two numbers, an minimum and a maximum, but we only need to do the maths once for the example, it's applied exactly the same to both).

I have:
10% Increased Physical Damage
20% Increased Elemental Damage
5% Increased Cold Damage
15% Increased Fire Damage

My weapon's base damage is 100 physical.
50% of this will be converted to cold
50% of that (25% of the total) will be converted again to fire.

The physical damage will be affected only by the physical damage increase, for a 10% increase.

The cold damage will be affected by physical, elemental and cold increases, for a total 35% increase (10 + 20 + 5).

The fire damage is affected by physical, elemental, cold and fire increases, for a total 50% increase (10 + 20 + 5 + 15).


Physical:
50 of the base damage ends up being physical, with a 10% increase applied = 55 Physical Damage

Cold:
25 of the base damage ends up being cold, with a 35% increase applied = 34 Cold Damage (33.75 rounds up)

Fire:
25 of the base damage ends up being fire, with a 50% increase applied = 38 Fire Damage (37.5 rounds up)

Basically, where in this calculation does Enfeeble apply? I can see one of three ways:

1) It simply functions as a 'global' damage reduction category, and -25% is added in each line to the +% modifiers.

2) It applies locally to the mob, reducing the base damage before conversion from 100 to 75 before any splitting/modifiers are applied.

3) It reduces each category of modifiers by 25% separately; you now have -15% physical, -5% elemental, -20% cold, -10% fire.

Under method 1, it reduces the final damage from 127 to 95.25. Under method 2, it would reduce the final damage to 67. Under method 3 it would reduce it to 70. I would assume method 1 is the way it works, but I could see it working the other ways, considering how strongly damage conversion can ramp up with +% modifiers.

It's very simple, I'm surprised you didn't think of the 4th option! It's like #2, except it applies AFTER all damage is calculated.

When you have Enfeeble the game simply looks at what your total damage hit would have been then reduces it by 25%. It does not get applied separately to each modifier. It's extremely literal, reduces damage by 25%. Your "damage" is calculated, then reduced by 25%. I guess technically it could work like #2 with the current wording but then it would be kind of "sneaky".

I did think of that, and called it Option 1. X*(A + B) = XA + XB. I just use a different methodology to get there. Your method kind of works against the way all other damage in the game is calculated by saying that 25% happens at 'the end'. There really isn't a 'the end' point until after hit lands and defender side calculations complete, because it keeps the damage broken down into its different aspects (physical, cold fire, critical physical, critical cold, etc) for purposes of resists, evading criticals, applying elemental debuffs, etc. The only point where it would make sense to sum everything up is when you say "sum up whatever's left, and subtract that from ES/life". It could reduce that by 25%, but I would bet money that isn't how it works. Prior to that point, there has to be severability that wouldn't exist if at any point it just summed everything and applied a multiplier.

Your description wouldn't be like #2 at all, though, because #2 deals basically with the localized weapon calculation - which is before those modifiers (and more importantly, before the damage is converted). #2 is like if your weapon was a -25% quality weapon.

Were it to work like you describe here - and like I describe in #1, there would simply be a 'Global Damage' +% modifier that functions to all damage similar to how elemental damage +% modifier functions to specific elements. 20% fire, 20% elemental = +40%. 20% fire, 20% elemental, 20% global = +60%. Or, in this case, 20% fire, 20% elemental, -25% global = +15%.

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Glowyrm wrote:

It seems they try to make things work the way they sound like they should without "hiding" too many things under the hood.

While that's generally true, it's not really true for damage conversion. Enfeeble's description is pretty generic to be able to pinpoint where it SHOULD go, and I'm not really aware of any other pure +% damage modifiers (as opposed to, say, +% physical damage), which is why I am not completely ignoring the possibility of #2 or #3 being accurate.

Anyone know if the chance to avoid stun from energy shield (50%) and passives (32%) is additive or multiplicative?

Is there a formula for average enemy accuracy by level out there anywhere?

I've been looking for one for awhile to help plan an evasion based character and to decide if Acrobatics is worth it. I've been doing some work on my own using the evasion formula to calculate accuracy by level, but I only have a dozen levels worth of data points and my best fit line doesn't look very elegant at all.

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Wain wrote:

Are map, gem and orb drops affected by increased item quantity mods? Are they affected by the increased item quantity from being in a party?

Does being in a party increase the monster life, experience and drops even if other party members are not in the same instance? What happens if people are in the same instance but not in a party?

If I start fighting a monster, then join a party during the fight, how are the monster's life, experience and drops affected?

Does the chaining effect of Lightning Arrow still count as a projectile and receive bonuses from projectile damage passive nodes? What about the Chain support gem?

Can the the chaining effect of Lightning Arrow damage the same monster multiple times?

Does Lightning Arrow always chain to 3 monsters if 3 are nearby?

Is the range of the Lightning Arrow chain effect affected by increased area passives?

Does the increased area passive increase the arc of Ground Slam or just its range?

Are all possible modifiers on an item equally likely to occur?

Can monsters dodge attacks, or do anything other than evading to cause an attack to do no damage? I.e., does Resolute Technique make every attack outside of PvP do damage no matter what?

Can someone please answer?

some of those are already answered on main page or respective threads.

1) double yes.
2) http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/11707/page/138#p1013272 someone else asked same things exactly, this was the answer.
3) can't answer this but the life doens't change as it is already taken damage while rest increases.
4) changing doens't change a projectile, and lightning arrow's AoE is "extra hits near hit foe" not chaining.
5 and 6) if there are OTHER foes still in range of EACH of the hits lightning arrow makes, then the EXTRA hits will hit as many OTHER foes as possible near the struck foe. hit a, extra damage to bcd, chained to b, extra damage to acd, and so on till chaining is done.
7) yes AoE increases targeting range of the extra hits whenever light arrow triggers.
8) just range but that in turn makes it wider, although someone seemed to prove me wrong and it does get wider overall. the arc shouldn't change though.
9) no answer for this.
10) monsters don't have dodging as far as i know, but they can still evade. so yes the description edit is to help in pvp situations as of this moment.

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Malice wrote:

Traps
Traps are very similar to spells, but are not affected by cast speed or spell damage mods. They are affected by % trap laying speed, and relevant damage mods. Integer damage bonuses on gear are not added to trap damage.

Are we sure about this? Comparing the cast speed/casts per second of my Fire Trap with and without cast speed gear sure makes a difference on the skill tooltip and the character window info. Or is it because Fire Trap has the Spell tag and thus gets affected by it?

Are Mines similar? What about spells turned into Trap/Remote Mines, is the laying speed of those affected by increased cast speed? And just what determines the base laying speed of Traps/Mines created by the supports, based on the skills speed or a default speed all mines/traps have?

The Unique Royal Circlet, "Rime Gaze," has the stats which state
Gems in this Item are Supported by Level 15 Concentrated Effect
10% Increased Cold Damage
+41 to Maximum Mana
103% Increased Energy Shield
50% Reduced Energy Shield Cooldown Recovery

What does this actually mean? Is the base cooldown recovery increased from 6 seconds to 9 seconds, or decreased from 6 seconds to 3 seconds. Also, how does this work with the energy shield cooldown recovery formula.
6/(1+percent energy shield cooldown recovery)

Would it change to...
9/(1+percent energy shield cooldown recovery) or 3/(1+percent energy shield cooldown recovery)
OR
6/(1+percent energy shield cooldown recovery)... Then + - 50%?

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Kabiras wrote:

The Unique Royal Circlet, "Rime Gaze," has the stats which state
Gems in this Item are Supported by Level 15 Concentrated Effect
10% Increased Cold Damage
+41 to Maximum Mana
103% Increased Energy Shield
50% Reduced Energy Shield Cooldown Recovery

What does this actually mean? Is the base cooldown recovery increased from 6 seconds to 9 seconds, or decreased from 6 seconds to 3 seconds. Also, how does this work with the energy shield cooldown recovery formula.
6/(1+percent energy shield cooldown recovery)

Would it change to...
9/(1+percent energy shield cooldown recovery) or 3/(1+percent energy shield cooldown recovery)
OR
6/(1+percent energy shield cooldown recovery)... Then + - 50%?

The formula is 6/(1+%increased energy shield cooldown recovery).
Rime Gaze has 50% reduced energy shield cooldown recovery. So without any passive in your tree, you will have :
6/(1-0.50) = 12 secondes