GGG devs, please give us some info on Ball Lightning mechanics - questions inside

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raics wrote:
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Natharias wrote:
Skill A deals 1 DPS but hits all targets in the area at the same rate.

Skill B deals 5 DPS but hits half as many targets as skill A, since it has a different method to hit the targets.

So 1*x > 5*x?

Yes, the actual DPS does matter.


Unfortunately, ball lightning with LMP doesn't do 20% of IAoE one, but 70%.
Therefore, if you think you can hit more than half again as much enemies with LMP version over IAoE version, LMP would be better.

Seriously, I'm beginning to think this guy is just pulling my leg...

Oh, and on a side note:
"
Natharias wrote:
So 1*x > 5*x?

x isn't the same, which is, again, the entire point. There's x1 and x2. In which case 1*x1 can be more than 5*x2.

Real math skills you got there.
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Last edited by ComradeSerge on Jul 6, 2014, 7:59:33 PM
"
raics wrote:
"
Natharias wrote:
Skill A deals 1 DPS but hits all targets in the area at the same rate.

Skill B deals 5 DPS but hits half as many targets as skill A, since it has a different method to hit the targets.

So 1*x > 5*x?

Yes, the actual DPS does matter.


Unfortunately, ball lightning with LMP doesn't do 20% of IAoE one, but 70%.
Therefore, if you think you can hit more than half again as much enemies with LMP version over IAoE version, LMP would be better. It's a possibility in open maps with a lot of enemies if you aren't using slower projectiles, I suppose.

So... it's a shame those supports aren't of same color, that way you could switch IAoE for indoor maps and LMP for outdoor ones.

Which reminds me... GGG, where are my multicolored gems?


The thing is, Slower Projectiles is almost a must-have for Ball Lightning for cases when enemies are on you. You get more hits from the same ball and area doesn't matter. So LMP/GMP are basically less effective while Echo/IAoE are better supports.

This is what I mean when I say something like "think about all of the supports available", which some other people don't seem to do. They only like to think of Ball Lightning + LMP/GMP versus BL + IAoE. They don't consider other supports that affect the other supports.

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ComradeSerge wrote:
"
raics wrote:
"
Natharias wrote:
Skill A deals 1 DPS but hits all targets in the area at the same rate.

Skill B deals 5 DPS but hits half as many targets as skill A, since it has a different method to hit the targets.

So 1*x > 5*x?

Yes, the actual DPS does matter.


Unfortunately, ball lightning with LMP doesn't do 20% of IAoE one, but 70%.
Therefore, if you think you can hit more than half again as much enemies with LMP version over IAoE version, LMP would be better.

Seriously, I'm beginning to think this guy is just pulling my leg...

Oh, and on a side note:
"
Natharias wrote:
So 1*x > 5*x?

x isn't the same, which is, again, the entire point. There's x1 and x2. In which case 1*x1 can be more than 5*x2.

Real math skills you got there.


Yeah, you'd think it was incorrect if you just looked at the equation part. Perhaps you should include the reasoning before the equation, which you seem to like to ignore in both reading and quoting. I'll do it for you:

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Natharias wrote:
Let's get off topic and apply your logic, then. Let's see how flawless it is, or isn't.

Skill A deals 1 DPS but hits all targets in the area at the same rate.

Skill B deals 5 DPS but hits half as many targets as skill A, since it has a different method to hit the targets.

So 1*x > 5*x?


Let's say a base number of ten targets are hit. This means A does 1*10=10. B does 5*5=25. 25>10.

Now do you understand it? If not I suggest you take a few mathematics courses.

I also suggest you read the above part, since it is meant mainly for you.

Edit: @raics

I used 1 and 5 for damage values for the total damage dealt.

If a BL does 3 damage but has LMP, it'll deal 2. Since only one can hit, only 2 damage is dealt. However, if you do two BLs due to Echo, they deal 3 but both hit, so damage would actually be 6. Since Echo also uses Slower Projectiles, it could be between 8-10.

So if I changed the numbers, 10 is much greater than 2, even though the 2 covers a wider area. The 10 will clear faster because it requires fewer casts and each cast can cover a different area when needed. 10 is also infinitely better than 2 against harder enemies. The only time 2 would be better is if you are dealing with trash mobs that die quicker to wider area coverage than the lower area 10, but due to the low base damage of BL the higher damage will have a much higher clear speed.
Last edited by Natharias on Jul 6, 2014, 9:58:52 PM
does the 200ms cooldown apply individually for each totem if the spell is used in totem?
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BisuProbe wrote:
does the 200ms cooldown apply individually for each totem if the spell is used in totem?


Yes.

If you cast a BL, that cast can only damage each enemy in range every 0.2 seconds. This is why we're having a debate on whether LMP/GMP is worth it or not, and it isn't.

This is why Echo was added, because it's the same cast but spell is repeated, so it is considered to be separate and therefor both balls can hit the same target separately.
tritotem BL would have been the best if not for echo being disabled for totems...
"
BisuProbe wrote:
tritotem BL would have been the best if not for echo being disabled for totems...


Tri-totem can still be better than self cast with Echo. No reflect, more area coverage, and you can use EE to your advantage.
"
Natharias wrote:
Edit: @raics

I used 1 and 5 for damage values for the total damage dealt.

If a BL does 3 damage but has LMP, it'll deal 2. Since only one can hit, only 2 damage is dealt. However, if you do two BLs due to Echo, they deal 3 but both hit, so damage would actually be 6. Since Echo also uses Slower Projectiles, it could be between 8-10.

So if I changed the numbers, 10 is much greater than 2, even though the 2 covers a wider area. The 10 will clear faster because it requires fewer casts and each cast can cover a different area when needed. 10 is also infinitely better than 2 against harder enemies. The only time 2 would be better is if you are dealing with trash mobs that die quicker to wider area coverage than the lower area 10, but due to the low base damage of BL the higher damage will have a much higher clear speed.


You were arguing LMP versus IAoE, not echo. That one seems to be a must for self-casters now, and with penetration gem of choice it started getting awfully crowded in support department for spells. Just compare it to double strike I had no idea what to support with even in a 4-linker bacuse i don't like multistrike in single target skills, so I went with rarity in the end.

But I did forget about bigger area and more hits with IAoE, if it grants ~40% more hits if you got a quality gem then it's more of 2:1 damage ratio instead of 1,5:1. And if you also use slower projectiles I'd guess it would be pretty rare to hit more than twice as many enemies with LMP version which would be needed to make it a better choice, and it would still be inferior at bosses. I'd call LMP a useful addition if you had room for that too, however, like I said above, we don't.
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"
Natharias wrote:
whatever

[Removed by Support]

You used completely arbitrary numbers (1 and 5 damage) which do not represent the real numbers at hand. Accordingly, I can take arbitrary numbers, just to show you that 1*x1 can be higher than 5*x2 if, say x1 = 12 and x2 = 2. 12 > 10.

The entire point of this is not to prove LMP is better than no LMP because the numbers you use are 1 and 5, i.e. they do not correspond to the real damage of LMP and no LMP BL. With arbitrary numbers, I could prove that a 6-linked 20/20 double strike does less dps than a level 1 cleave with no links. The only point is to prove that your math is wrong, even with arbitrary numbers, because if x1 is enough higher than x2 (which are numbers quite absurd, just as your 1 and 5), then it can be higher, as is the case above, if x1 is 12 and x2 is 5.

Now, all of a sudden, you start talking about echo. When did I ever say echo should not be used? The only issue here is LMP or no LMP with inc. aoe, with the same gem setup of other links.






So, one last time, let's do math again. Please pay attention or just don't troll me if you're doing that.

If all other gems are the same, the clear speed will look like the following:

x = clear speed
y = dps per 1 target
n = number of targets that are being hit per second

For BL with LMP, let's take x1, i.e.:

x1 = y2 * n2

For BL with no LMP, let's use

x2 = y2 * n2


The question is, can x1 > x2


If the dps of BL with no LMP is 100, that means (with the same gem setup) that the dps of BL with LMP is 70 (and this is a LEVEL 1 LMP!). Therefore:

x2 = 100 * n2

and

x1 = 70 * n1

There are many cases where x1 (clear speed with LMP) will be higher than x2 (clear speed with no LMP but with inc aoe). For example, if with inc. aoe you hit 10 targets, but with LEVEL 1 LMP you hit only 15, we will have the following:

x2 = 100 * 10
x2 = 1000

x1 = 70 * 15
x1 = 1050

So, clearly, in this case, x1 > x2 because 1050 > 1000, i.e. the overall damage of BL with LMP would be higher than the overall damage of BL with no LMP and inc.aoe. Not to mention all the cases where n1 would be a lot higher than n2, like 20 to 10 or so.

Again (and again (and again)), this is only level 1 LMP, because a higher level LMP would bring much more damage, especially a 20 quality level 20 one. We are not discussing spell echo here. Spell echo is obviously a must, and no one ever said in this thread that you should use BL without spell echo. The other gems are also the same. The only difference between x1 and x2 is that you use LMP for x1 and Inc. aoe instead of LMP for x2.

What you consistently refuse to accept is that there is a pack size threshold when LMP becomes better than inc. aoe. The only question is, as I said probably 10 times by now, what this threshold is and is it low enough that LMP is viable.
1H+Shield High Block&Spell Block Tank: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/868995
Ice Crash Crit Staff AKA "The Shaterring Karui": https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1289037
Tanky Block+AR+EV Ranger Crit Reave Dagger/Claw: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1301888
Last edited by ComradeSerge on Jul 7, 2014, 9:55:37 AM
"
Natharias wrote:
"
BisuProbe wrote:
tritotem BL would have been the best if not for echo being disabled for totems...


Tri-totem can still be better than self cast with Echo. No reflect, more area coverage, and you can use EE to your advantage.



If it is true that every totem has their own individual 200ms cooldown for their LB casted,
generally a tri LB totem would do more damage AND provide better area coverage than any typical selfcaster.
since each totem is considered as its own damage source, having three totems basically means u are doing 50+50+50=150% base damage of LB if the all three separate projectiles from each totem comes close to an enemy, as compared to selfcast LMP which only has 70% base damage.

not to mention immunity to reflect and safety.
of course selfcast has the advantage of echo, but would it better than totem based on this sole advantage alone, consdiering the mechanics of LB playing to totems' advantage? don't forget u can use EE much easier with tri totem.

LB - spell totem - faster casting - lightpenetraion main 4L

increased aoe - slower projectile would be good but not entirely necessary considering 3 totems spamming LB would provide a pretty big coverage already

of course theres always empower and all those added elem gems
Last edited by BisuProbe on Jul 7, 2014, 11:55:39 PM
"
BisuProbe wrote:
since each totem is considered as its own damage source, having three totems basically means u are doing 50+50+50=150% base damage of LB if the all three separate projectiles from each totem comes close to an enemy, as compared to selfcast LMP which only has 70% base damage.


Actually, with 50% less daamge and 30% less cast speed each totem does only 35% of selfcast damage.

So, three totems can do at most 105% of regular skill damage (by 'regular' I mean a basic setup), and if you put in echo instead of totem in the same setup you do around 150% damage selfcasting. If you also got a totem next to selfcasting it that's probably 175% of regular damage (25% instead of 35% because that totem will probably be less well supported compared to original skill unless you use a staff).

Tactical advantages of using a spell totem are still there but the damage is pretty underwhelming these days. I'm personally for redoing the penalties to 20% less damage / 50% less cast speed or something.
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Last edited by raics on Jul 8, 2014, 5:44:48 AM

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