GGG devs, please give us some info on Ball Lightning mechanics - questions inside

The most important links for ball lightning for dps are echo, faster casting and slower projectiles. Increased aoe is also a nice single target dps boost as each cast effectively stays in range of the target longer. Currently with BL-echo-faster casting-slower projectiles- lightning penetration with a 0.25 second cast time I can have 6 balls all doing damage to a single target. Increased aoe pushes this to 8 casts dealing damage to a single target.
Also should include empower, best link for all spells.
Last edited by asshatticus on Jul 4, 2014, 11:54:48 PM
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Natharias wrote:
Increased Area of Effect.

Instead of hitting 10 enemies for 100, you hit 15 for 100. 15 for 100 is greater than 70 to 20.

Perhaps you should consider all support gems instead of freaking over just one specific type.

How am I "not considering" all gems? I'm arguing why I think LMP is better tha Inc AoE, just as you are arguing why Inc. AoE is better than LMP.

I don't think the numbers are close to how it really is. IMO, LMP covers A LOT more area than just 1 ball with Inc. AoE. Yes, I've tried it. I can't be 100% sure cause I'm not a dev and I don't know the numbers, just as you don't know them. So it's my belief against yours. Essentially, you think you'll clear faster without LMP and with Inc. AoE, I think the opposite. Until a dev proves me wrong, I'm not changing my opinion, just as you, obviously, aren't changing yours. And Mark didn't say "yeah, LMP sucks". To my question "is lmp better or is inc aoe better with no lmp?" he replied
"
Mark_GGG wrote:
That depends on all kinds of other factors.

So it doesn't seem at all as one-sided as you claim it to be.
1H+Shield High Block&Spell Block Tank: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/868995
Ice Crash Crit Staff AKA "The Shaterring Karui": https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1289037
Tanky Block+AR+EV Ranger Crit Reave Dagger/Claw: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1301888
Last edited by ComradeSerge on Jul 5, 2014, 8:04:58 AM
"
ComradeSerge wrote:
"
Natharias wrote:
Increased Area of Effect.

Instead of hitting 10 enemies for 100, you hit 15 for 100. 15 for 100 is greater than 70 to 20.

Perhaps you should consider all support gems instead of freaking over just one specific type.

How am I "not considering" all gems? I'm arguing why I think LMP is better tha Inc AoE, just as you are arguing why Inc. AoE is better than LMP.

I don't think the numbers are close to how it really is. IMO, LMP covers A LOT more area than just 1 ball with Inc. AoE. Yes, I've tried it. I can't be 100% sure cause I'm not a dev and I don't know the numbers, just as you don't know them. So it's my belief against yours. Essentially, you think you'll clear faster without LMP and with Inc. AoE, I think the opposite. Until a dev proves me wrong, I'm not changing my opinion, just as you, obviously, aren't changing yours. And Mark didn't say "yeah, LMP sucks". To my question "is lmp better or is inc aoe better with no lmp?" he replied
"
Mark_GGG wrote:
That depends on all kinds of other factors.

So it doesn't seem at all as one-sided as you claim it to be.


Ball Lightning + Spell Totem (x3) + Empower + Lightning Penetration + Slower Projectiles + Increased Area of Effect.

I don't see how LMP/GMP would beat having totems casting it. But let's consider self-cast.

Ball Lightning + LMP/GMP + Empower + Lightning Penetration + Slower Projectiles + Increased Area of Effect

versus

Ball Lightning + Echo + Empower + Lightning Penetration + Slower Projectiles + Increased Area of Effect.

The first one may cover more area, but you're dealing a total damage of 70% to targets in a somewhat larger area. Slower Projectiles limits the effectiveness of LMP/GMP since you don't want BL just overshooting a target close to you and the use of BL at range is limited. I've tried it.

The second one has two balls that will shred enemies that are close to you because both will be damaging the enemy at 90% effectiveness. 2 x 90% is infinitely better than 1 x 70%. It's simple math that you cannot argue. So no, it's not "belief" and doesn't require a dev to answer it for you. If you want to wait for a dev, you're free to wait in your little box for them to comment on someone who will say it, since they won't say it.

It was the players that discovered and abused snapshotting. The devs had nothing, at least as far as we know, for telling us about snapshotting.

Note, the second setup that uses Echo will also be infinitely better against bosses and tough rares, which some builds may have trouble with.
Omfg -.-

Do I have to draw it for you that I know the damage to a single target is better without LMP? Your "simple math" is again completely ignoring the ONLY disputable thing here, and that is the following: how many enemies can you hit per cast in a very large pack with LMP compared to no LMP with inc. aoe?

If you didn't understand now, I'm done trying to explain it to you anyway.
1H+Shield High Block&Spell Block Tank: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/868995
Ice Crash Crit Staff AKA "The Shaterring Karui": https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1289037
Tanky Block+AR+EV Ranger Crit Reave Dagger/Claw: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1301888
Last edited by ComradeSerge on Jul 5, 2014, 9:14:20 PM
"
ComradeSerge wrote:
Omfg -.-

Do I have to draw it for you that I know the damage to a single target is better without LMP? Your "simple math" is again completely ignoring the ONLY disputable thing here, and that is the following: how many enemies can you hit per cast in a very large pack with LMP compared to no LMP with inc. aoe?

If you didn't understand now, I'm done trying to explain it to you anyway.


0/10 troll.

Spoiler
There's never an "ONLY disputable thing". I suggest you drop trolling, since it reflects poorly on your character.
"
Natharias wrote:
0/10 troll
because you stole all 10 points.
And worst change is putting almost all bosses in new version of maps into fucking small areas, where you can't kite well or dodge stuff. What a terrible idiot invented that I want say to him: dude flick you, seriously flick you very much.
"
silumit wrote:
"
Natharias wrote:
0/10 troll
because you stole all 10 points.


Actually you did, since you're off topic.

Try getting on topic, instead of trolling.
Here's some real math for you.

x = clear speed
y = dps per 1 target
n = number of targets that are being hit per second

x = y * n

What you're doing is constantly repeating over and over again that the y of BL with no LMP is higher than the y of BL with LMP. Thanks, Sherlock, we didn't know that!

What your "simple math" isn't touching on at all is the n, which is another thing which determines clear speed. To you, clear speed is determined only by the y. Well, than you've got some really "simple" math there, mate.

So, yes, there really is only one disputable thing, and that is the n. The y isn't disputable at all.
1H+Shield High Block&Spell Block Tank: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/868995
Ice Crash Crit Staff AKA "The Shaterring Karui": https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1289037
Tanky Block+AR+EV Ranger Crit Reave Dagger/Claw: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1301888
Last edited by ComradeSerge on Jul 6, 2014, 2:12:21 PM
"
ComradeSerge wrote:
Here's some real math for you.

x = clear speed
y = dps per 1 target
n = number of targets that are being hit per second

x = y * n

What you're doing is constantly repeating over and over again that the y of BL with no LMP is higher than the y of BL with LMP. Thanks, Sherlock, we didn't know that!

What your "simple math" isn't touching on at all is the n, which is another thing which determines clear speed. To you, clear speed is determined only by the y. Well, than you've got some really "simple" math there, mate.

So, yes, there really is only one disputable thing, and that is the n. The y isn't disputable at all.


Let's get off topic and apply your logic, then. Let's see how flawless it is, or isn't.

Skill A deals 1 DPS but hits all targets in the area at the same rate.

Skill B deals 5 DPS but hits half as many targets as skill A, since it has a different method to hit the targets.

So 1*x > 5*x?

Yes, the actual DPS does matter.

The only time that the DPS wouldn't matter is when you play a Cast on Crit build, and that seems to be the only thing you play. I would suggest playing something else to see how important actual DPS is.
"
Natharias wrote:
Skill A deals 1 DPS but hits all targets in the area at the same rate.

Skill B deals 5 DPS but hits half as many targets as skill A, since it has a different method to hit the targets.

So 1*x > 5*x?

Yes, the actual DPS does matter.


Unfortunately, ball lightning with LMP doesn't do 20% of IAoE one, but 70%.
Therefore, if you think you can hit more than half again as much enemies with LMP version over IAoE version, LMP would be better. It's a possibility in open maps with a lot of enemies if you aren't using slower projectiles, I suppose.

So... it's a shame those supports aren't of same color, that way you could switch IAoE for indoor maps and LMP for outdoor ones.

Which reminds me... GGG, where are my multicolored gems?
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Last edited by raics on Jul 6, 2014, 6:07:02 PM

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