About 2 hander's

So, i was wondering, they adjusted these weapons to have better "dps" rolls. However this makes no sense to me. In the current meta dps is of no importance, what is however important is your defensive value's.

Is there a way to fix defensive value's for 2-hander's without enabling other builds at the same time?

My first thought was to give 2-handers "double implicit rolls", axes get a single implicit in this case.

And these second implicit rolls would be "+ to max all resistance", by making these weapon "local" mods, they are hard to abuse.

It could function like this -->

item level 1 --> 40 , max implicit roll is +1 to max all resistances

item level 41 --> 65, max implicit roll is +2 max all resistances

up to item lvl 81 (max i think atm?) max implicit roll could roll +3 max all resistances.

Would this be O P?

For this we should compare it to the EHP ability of shields, and put them on equal strength/uttility for 2hander builds to shine in the end-game.

Any thoughts on this subject guys?

I was thinking about this after reading the "why are there so little duelist's" thread. It is mentioned there that his main functionality lie's in DW and 2-hander builds. And because of the end-game potential of both of these builds, they are lacking in numbers.

Personally i view DW as being end-game viable because of the ability to "block" and "spell block".

Two-hander builds are also viable imo, but when compared to other styles they lack EHP to justify an investment in such a character for endgame.

Peace,

-Boem-

(obviously this thread is aimed at "hardcore end-game" situations, where the difference in EHP value's really becomes noticeable.)

Keep it civil y'all.

max itemlevel is 84 iirc (lvl 79 map with a chest +5 level), but yeah, i share your opinion, except with staves, cause those can get quite some block already.

I very much agree with this, with 1h and dual wield builds you can get to the same dps as 2h builds but you also get a LOT more defensive values.

+to maximum resistances would be brilliant to 2h weapons because currently they have no block chance, you dont get any life or resistances like from shields, you just have to get in there and smack everything before it kills you.

Tanking as a 2h build is difficult, it can be acheived but its a lot harder than it should be.

In the current state of the game 2h builds have a VERY difficult time killing atziri, i dont think anyone has attempted it as a 2h in hardcore yet, Uber Atziri is impossible with 2h builds, this has to be remedied.

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max itemlevel is 84 iirc (lvl 79 map with a chest +5 level), but yeah, i share your opinion, except with staves, cause those can get quite some block already.

thx for pointing that out, however i think this is limited to "ambush league" atm right?

Obviously it is of no importance to my point, they would just also get the max value.

About staves :

The block value's are really low, i would agree with you if a serious investment could be made to make the block count.

Currently there is around 15% staff block in the passive tree i guess (just thinking, did not check the value's) they are also very scattered and have very minimal "node power" 2% being the common standard, with the exception of a single 10% node.

And i would consider anything below 50% block as redundant since the higher the value the more powerfull it becomes.

The only way to tackle this issue atm would be to equip an anvils amulet and a BoR, while simultaneously limiting yourself in gear choices and passive tree.

This in turn means you can only wear rainbow-strides to utilize "spell-block" which obviously is the real goal of maxing block%.

This entire set-up to max-out staff block efficiency will result in roughly 1/10 spells being blocked and as thus can be neglected as useful in end-game.

Just to say "quite some block" is pretty redundant when the stat becomes exponentially better the higher the value.

It's like saying 50 lightning resistance is "quite some resistance". While being true, it does not hold up in the "end-game" conundrum.

Peace, and thx for response.

-Boem-

Edit 1 :

"

I very much agree with this, with 1h and dual wield builds you can get to the same dps as 2h builds but you also get a LOT more defensive values.

+to maximum resistances would be brilliant to 2h weapons because currently they have no block chance, you dont get any life or resistances like from shields, you just have to get in there and smack everything before it kills you.

Tanking as a 2h build is difficult, it can be acheived but its a lot harder than it should be.

In the current state of the game 2h builds have a VERY difficult time killing atziri, i dont think anyone has attempted it as a 2h in hardcore yet, Uber Atziri is impossible with 2h builds, this has to be remedied.

Yes i am tackling this from the "increase tank value" perspective, in which +max resistance value's is actually very helpful in "sustaining damage". It also makes HP nodes more efficient, but only when equipping a 2-hander. Thus limiting abuse.

The only "abuse" i could think of was Spectral throw with 2-handers. However it's not technically an abuse, only that they are ranged and have a limited exposure to danger, but when they are in "danger" they are subject to the same limited defenses a melee 2-hander faces. Thus this can be neglected as an "abuse".

Edit 2 :

On the subject of staves btw, adding +3 max resistance at top value's, would additionally be extremely helpful for "casters with staves" to diminish reflect damage. Which would be cool for that as-well imo, since staves are very rarely utilized for caster builds, since a shield usually gives more EHP value's and similar "dps" value can be achieved with wand+shield compared to staffs.

+3 max with inner force and some other nodes might turn to 4 max res and this is huge

Sadly the situation meta is in right now is not to be fixed with puny changes.

Mob dmg is absurd. To counter that defensive mechanics are absurd (block spell block!). This makes shield a way to go no matter what.

Reducing block effectiveness (somewhere between binary way of poe and flat reduction from d3) and then reducing mob dmg (currently balanced around block and similar mechanics) is the way to go.

Without that 2h will remain what they are - choice for poor people that cannot afford good 1h. Or few people that require 2 5links. Other than that 1h is and will be the best choice. Difference in survivability is incredible.

Staves are nice etc but node placement is horrid and staves themselves are incredibly hard to roll. Even then the block chance is very low compared to meh shield build (even with bor and anvil)

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+3 max with inner force and some other nodes might turn to 4 max res and this is huge

Sadly the situation meta is in right now is not to be fixed with puny changes.

Mob dmg is absurd. To counter that defensive mechanics are absurd (block spell block!). This makes shield a way to go no matter what.

Reducing block effectiveness (somewhere between binary way of poe and flat reduction from d3) and then reducing mob dmg (currently balanced around block and similar mechanics) is the way to go.

Without that 2h will remain what they are - choice for poor people that cannot afford good 1h. Or few people that require 2 5links. Other than that 1h is and will be the best choice. Difference in survivability is incredible.

Staves are nice etc but node placement is horrid and staves themselves are incredibly hard to roll. Even then the block chance is very low compared to meh shield build (even with bor and anvil)

I agree with your sentiment, however, i think the current state of the game might not be changed any time soon. At least not on the scale you are proposing.

This fix could probably be extremely "build enabling" for end-game viability.

Also about the inner-force thing, i would figure this stat to be "unmodifiable" sort of speak, i am sure GGG can do this, even if they can not the max value would be 4% to max with inner force + the +3% buff node. And would additionally require passive tree investment which could "justify" this function.

It is sad to see, but GGG has really lost the view of
"75 resistance will enable you to play end-game", i feel the current meta lie's in around 90% resistances (with flask's), sadly the functions for a 2-hand build to get these value's are extremely limited and thus restrict players to not utilizing these builds in end-game.

This chance "could" potentially remedy this situation for the better.

Also i would like to point out, + max resistance value's does not add resistances, they would still have to be gained from gear :), further more, with this implementation losing a "purity" aura is enabled, which could further open up build viability/diversion.

Peace,

-Boem-

Staves - or perhaps staff nodes in the passive tree - need a fairly solid overhaul in my opinion. Outside of a few uniques which are good for specific builds, staves seem to be the red-headed step-child of PoE. Nodes are fairly weak and as mentioned, the innate ability to block with them is laughable as it currently stands. I would love to see the passives changed to make staves viable, and I think with some effort on GGG's part staves could be given their own niche, perhaps some more dynamic block builds. And currently attempting to craft a staff for a specific use is a waste of currency due to staves being able to roll virtually any weapon mod, both melee and caster.

Some ideas I had off the top of my head for staff node buffs:
- Change/add some block nodes to allow max block with significant point investment (Im talking 100 points sort of thing)
Interesting notables such as:
- increased attack speed on staff block
- counteraatack on staff block
- x% chance to block the next instance of spell damage when you land a critical strike with a staff
- Gain power charge on block while wielding a staff
- When damaged by an element, gain x% increased max resistance to that element for 5 seconds while wielding a staff.
- Spell damage converted to increased melee damage with x% efficiency. Cannot deal spell damage.

These are just a few ideas banging about in my head, im sure the excellent minds at GGG could come up with something interesting for them. Please make staves interesting (and competitive!) to use.

Excellent suggestions grimmhammer, aldo very difficult to do overall balance and foresee issue's with implementation of mechanics like that, i like the creativity involved.

Another thing that crosses my mind, is to create 2 sets of staffs, one limited to physical affixes/suffixes, and one purely revolving around spell casters.

With something like this, the physical staffs could have more block% due to needing a melee approach, while for a caster staff another implicit might be invented, or simply block but with a lower %.

The same could be done with daggers, but i will not go into that since this thread is dedicated to 2-hander issue's in the current game-state.

but you all know that no matter what we discuss here and no matter how good our ideas are these wont happen?

there was a VERY interesting DW thread around there, lots of good/not so good suggestion, lots of very constructive posts and sparks of genius there and there. what we've got after it? blunt and bold +% phys change to DW.. c'mon. is that it? what issue did it solve?

i'm afraid that this is exactly what is going to happen (if anything happens) to 2h - some blunt and unimaginative change that noone wants and that solves nothing.. im skeptical :/

btw my own idea for 2h:

"status aliments last twice as long/have twice the power". i know that 2h already have higher ele dmg but difference is not THAT high to matter (most ele dmg comes from auras/jewelry anyway). if 2h are all about power - this might be the power source. also applies to puncture etc DOT effects.

survivability with nodes, esp block nodes is nothing more than cementing the current broken 'block issue' as the 'to go' state.

block and its binary mechanic is the source of many, many balancing concerns. as long as it is not changed (make mobs 75% block 40% spell block.. let us feel it) - nothing shall change. shield >> rest

^your suggestion actually resembles that of GGG, as in boost damage output. (depending on element status obviously)

Not to mention some of those are equally broken like block, stun comes to mind, a good freezer etc...

My approach would actually focus on the EHP/defenses of 2-hander builds. To enable competition in the end-game.

Block is strong i agree and a change to the mechanic is warranted i give you that. However, the opposite of "random block %" is stacking max elemental resist and this has proven itself to also be an effective way to increase EHP value's drastically.

So enabling this to be easier for 2-hander builds will actually make them competitive with shield builds, while still not being OP. (compared to block you still receive damage after all)

The issue is hardly dps/crowd control, these are plentiful, the issue is EHP in the current end-game.

My opinion obviously, but i really don't think increased status ailments (and non status ailments if i read your post right?) is the right "fix" to increase 2-hand viability in the end-game.