1.0.6b Patch Notes

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Completed 1 ChallengeD33p wrote:
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SkyCore wrote:

See that desecrate will NEVER create a corpse higher than level 68.

Says who?


The patch notes and Qarl's comment, both of which mention the level REQUIREMENT of the skill gem as the limit. The level requirement doesn't exceed 68.
Dual Flame Totem build for Scion: http://pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/827006 (Witch/Templar, too).
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SkyCore wrote:
Since desecrate caps out at level 68, it will never produce level appropriate corpses in high level maps. Its a nerf.
It would be nice if the cap was removed with a level 20 gem. Or at least have the level progression of desecrate continue beyond gem level 20 so empower and +skill items would boost it.


Maybe they could make it work like Animate Weapon/Guardian and have a separate "Maximum corpse level is X" mod, and at gem levels 20+ X = 100.
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Completed 1 ChallengeKiffenn wrote:


You realise summoning is designed based on the fact you can snapshot right?


Sooo...I suppose that I am the most pro gamer in the world, since I have done up to 74 maps with most any combination of mods, without many issues, on a level 84 summoner, and have never once used the snapshot mechanic. When I made her, I was too poor for even a Tabula Rasa, so I just figured I'd play without it. Never even used a Chober or Sid. Funny...it works just fine. Go to Lunaris 2, raise BMs, walk around maps, stuff dies...no snapshotting involved. Insane isn't it?


Just a friendly tip for you so you don't emberass yourself again.

Don't brag about level 74 maps.


I stopped there because RNG decided I needed to go no further, as I wasn't given any map drops. That whole thing about being poor: it kinda prevented me from buying any 75s to keep progressing, so I just rolled another character to give me something to do. That thing about assumptions....yeah.

Oh, this was also done wearing pretty much just the crap I found on the ground while leveling, aside from the shield on her that I was able to save up 8c for. My summon gems weren't even above level 18 at the time, and only my summon zombie gem had any quality on it, and was a whopping 7%. Show me another build that can run 74s solo, with any combination of mods other than Blood Magic, with gear and gems worth less than 15c combined. Yeah...shoosh. Summoners were fine then, and they'll survive this bug fix.
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USANumber1 wrote:
If you're saying devs are incompetent when it comes to balancing and designing summoners: I agree. The desecrate change highlights that full well.


No, I'm not saying that at all.

I don't snapshot, and I find summoner incredibly powerful in this game.
I've played games over around 20 years now? And always go with summoners as they are my favorites, and find the options and such in this game quite well done.

The system here though, allows the player to fail, if they don't think up the best utilization.

I find that many players have a very hard time with summoners, but am unsure why. Perhaps too much damage focus is my best guess. For instance, you put blind on skeletons, get dual and permanent curses. Use Enfeeble and Temporal Chains.

Those 3 things alone will omit nearly any threat outside of mass AoE attacks to summons. For those, we now have Bone Offering, which is letting my pets face-tank Dominus without even skeletons being killed. They can have 16% elemental resistance from a notable, and with every aura passive a broad 70% total with just ONE aura, purity of elements (gives 54% all res with every aura buff passive). Then add in vitality, rejuv totem, their new hp regen/leech passives, these give in excess of 10% hp/sec (with aura buff passives) leech on specters, hell my pets are near un-killable to all but the highest threats, might lose one, every 10 hours or so if I forget to cast something...

Mileage can vary though, but I don't think the game is much at fault. I think summoner here is quite well done. Just missing an 'ultimate summon' gem that summons a behemoth for a short time with massive cooldown.

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Completed 1 ChallengeD33p wrote:
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SkyCore wrote:

See that desecrate will NEVER create a corpse higher than level 68.

Says who?


One of the dev's posts here explained it: the level of corpses spawned is equal to the required level of the gem. The highest required level the gem goes to is 68. 1 + 1 = ?

I agree with SkyCore; a lvl 20 gem should just scale the corpses with the area or create level 68 corpses - whichever is higher. At gem levels above 20 (i.e. empower, etc), either just increase the chaos damage progression of the gem alone or add in extra levels to the corpses proportionately as well, if desired.
Last edited by Aimeryan on February 4, 2014 3:25 AM
I hope it doesnt become business as usual for GGG to start calling every nerf a bug fix and only vaguely document changes to the game. At least give some proper feedback on why things had to be changed.

Not that this fell into the realm of a "stealth nerf" but there have definitely been some nerfs in the more recent patches that were not fully documented.
What is with all these folks who have recently jumped on the summoner bandwagon complaining about every single summoner tweak, and crying "NERF" before rationally thinking things through? As a player who has made a summoner in almost every hardcore league since closed beta, many of which have gone past level 80, solo, and into high level maps, I can say from first-hand experience that they're one of the most powerful, 'bang-for-your-buck' lazy farming character I've ever made. Not to mention they seem to be getting stronger with every patch.

They're cheap, effective, safe (you can literally go months without having to use a HP potion), great solo or in parties, and require very little investment to get going. With all your damage coming from minions, you're free to curse-spam away, and curses are one of the most powerful things you can utilize. Especially when they have perm duration, and you're rocking 3-4 of them. In fact, GGG could completely remove BMs and Evangelists from the game and they'd still be a powerful character to have around.

Of course, you can take things further with Tabula snapshotting, remote mine, trap, sunblast, and a few others which aren't public knowledge but crank things up a couple notches beyond that... but let's be serious for a moment.

Gallowmere1984 has the right idea. They're an amazing build, made even more amazing by all the buffs GGG has been doing as of late. I like how GGG's trying to make summoners have a more active role with the new skills, but between those, the new passives and snapshot mechanics, things have gotten completely out of control.

At least if/when snapshotting does get fixed, the new skills/passives will soften the blow of the nerf. I can guarantee long time players of the build will still be around summoning zombies and minions and having a grand ol' time while the 'flavour-of-the-month' chasers go off to find the next OP build.

Yes, it's a pain in the ass to spend 5 minutes snapshotting everything, but look at the return you get from it. I've done Lv74+ maps where the white mobs melt so fast I don't even have a chance to notice their HP bars register above them. Other classes may be able to put out the same damage, sure, but to an entire screen? All while you're doing absolutely nothing but maybe throwing up a curse or two and walking around looking at loot?

I'm sure many other longtime players of the class can back me up here.


Also...

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xMasaox wrote:
Detonate Dead templar, born 1.06, died prematurly in 1.06b at lvl 56 before using it...
Buying a Q20 Detonate,
Theorycraft this...
Lvling it...

for nothing.

I love to waste my times ...


There's a rather large difference between wasting your time and not thinking things through, and you're more a victim of the latter than the former in this case.

These changes mean that now you have to level up desecrate, and the relative power of your explosions based on them will grow as you level up. Sounds... balanced to me. Sure it might cap at high levels for maps, but it seems reasonable to me to look at DD as a supplement to the corpses you'll get from killing things, and not as the primary source.

People have already made wildly successful detonate dead builds long before desecrate existed. If anything, desecrate was a huge buff, and you should look at the skill for what it is. If you just rushed out to buy a Q20 DD thinking you found something you could abuse, then you kind of got what you had coming from the gem being fixed.

I'll break it down even further:

Self-cast Detonate dead build - cast desecrate, explode things, explode things that have just died for more explode-y damage. Repeat as needed until everything's dead. Or to be more specific, look into how you link DD, and what you explode. Exploding rares with a good linked DD will send blood and bits and meat flying all over the place. It's quite strong.

CoCS DD/Desecrate - Spectral Throw/Barrage/Cyclone wildly and not worry much about where the bodies are coming from, everything'll blow up anyway.

If you don't believe it, look up some of the DD builds on the forum. The damage they put out is incredible, and you don't even have to level DD. (There's another thing that should be looked at!)



So come on people, try to look at everything objectively. When exploitable things get fixed, it's a good thing. Some people may have got off benefiting from an exploit long before it's fixed, but that's life. GGG's doing what they can to balance an already crazy fun game, and if we love the game and want to make it better, we should help them with honest feedback.

Wraeclast is meant to be a foul, dark, unforgiving and unreasonable place, but that doesn't mean we have to all be like that on the forum when GGG's trying to fix stuff.


TLDR: Reading's good for you, stop cheating yourself.
Yeah not a huge fan of the desecrate change at all it completely screws up the end game specter raising and detonate dead viability. It would be a very simple fix of "max corpse level is limited by character level and Area level" adding the character level cap would stop power-leveling exploits and for the end game it will be strange and require non stop suicides to not be at the area level if not above it(65+).

As it is now a summoner will get to merciless and be unable to summon appropriate level corpses. Summoners will be doing level 70+ maps before they can even summon a level 66 corpse...that is a bit silly :/
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Xyre wrote:
As it is now a summoner will get to merciless and be unable to summon appropriate level corpses. Summoners will be doing level 70+ maps before they can even summon a level 66 corpse...that is a bit silly :/


Perhaps with the desecrate ability yes, but not in actuality. In fact, many summoners do, and have no problem clearing level 70+ maps with level 65/66/67 spectres (lunaris2/3/Dominus). Desecrate in it's current state still makes things easier.

Let's say you want to get a Burned Miscreation. Before desecrate, you'd go get your zombies, go to Lunaris 2, let the zombies do the work, then raise your spectres. If your zombies couldn't quite handle the heat, you'd go get spectres from a lower difficulty and let them do the work instead.

Now, if your desecrate isn't high enough for what you want, you can still summon spectres with it, and then use those to go get higher ones from the map itself. Or you can just be lazy and use the desecrate ones, since the chances are high that they'll be able to take care of business anyway well enough on their own as it is.


One rather amazing (and silly) thing about summoners, is that they can still use spectres from the previous difficulty well into the current difficulty. If you don't believe me, go raise Cruel BMs, Evangelists, Fire Alchs, Flame Sentinels etc. and take them to Merciless Ledge/Fellshrine/wherever. As long as your passives are solid, and you've been leveling your gems & supports, they'll carry you through the content seamlessly.

Desecrate still makes getting spectres 100% safe and easy. The change really isn't all that bad as it seems to be.

Remember, it's also an awesome skill for summoners (and any chars now) to use in new maps as a tool for scouting out what kind of monster spawns you get. There are many ways to think outside the box.
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Aimeryan wrote:
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Completed 1 ChallengeD33p wrote:
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SkyCore wrote:

See that desecrate will NEVER create a corpse higher than level 68.

Says who?


One of the dev's posts here explained it: the level of corpses spawned is equal to the required level of the gem. The highest required level the gem goes to is 68. 1 + 1 = ?

I agree with SkyCore; a lvl 20 gem should just scale the corpses with the area or create level 68 corpses - whichever is higher. At gem levels above 20 (i.e. empower, etc), either just increase the chaos damage progression of the gem alone or add in extra levels to the corpses proportionately as well, if desired.


Having tested it, there is not sufficient proof regarding this.

We took a level x gem, detonated dead in PVP, then used the same gem with a total of +3 levels and repeated the detonate dead on it. Needless to say the damage was higher. The required level of this gem never changed, but the corpse level did, leading to the belief that the corpse levels can proceed beyond level 68.

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