HP cluster on the right side of the tree (around acrobatics)

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SL4Y3R wrote:

I despise having to take a frenzy and duration node to leave shadow specifically.

I kind of feel that way about any point of the outer tree that is most easily (or exclusively, in Shadow's case) accessible through a charge node. While charges are typically always beneficial, they're not always something I want to build for. And they do require a bit of focus, save for endurance, which is the only charge that doesn't branch to the outer tree.

So far as life in that area: There is just barely not enough, if I want to stay in the area between Duelist and Shadow. I'm always one or two points too inefficient (edit: net sum points per total % life) to grab that last cluster to have just enough and feel like it was worth it. I think something as simple as merging the two +10 dex nodes between Fervor and the Weapon Artistry cluster would go a long way. Doubly so with the Revenge of the Hunted cluster, which always feels +10 dex too far out of the way. I have yet to take it because it takes me on a far too inefficient path compared to other options.

Otherwise, the thing the area is truly lacking is enough of a quantity of accessible life regen. If I want to go acrobatics, I have a hard time not starting as Scion solely because of her starting life/mana regen and huge life cluster. Granted, Duelist offers excellent life regen, but it comes at a very heavy travel cost to reach for Ranger/Shadow. Additionally, Arm Wrestling is an incredibly uninteresting cluster, it could be made much more interesting by changing two of the pdps nodes to 0.4% life regen + pdps, and/or adding 1% leech to a weaker pdps notable at the end.

My thoughts on that area of the tree in general.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

Life seems to be discouraged for Witches, and especially so for Shadows.

Now tell me the logic to that! Witches, sure. Casters. Ranged. Typically.

Shadow? You're kinda meant to be the crit hit specialist, and that usually means daggers, and he's all about 'one good stab'. What if that stab fails? You're gonna need life, because let's face it, EV/ES is *shit*.

I thought you of all people could see the skill tree and the lack of life in the Witch and Shadow areas. Ranger can somewhat easily grab the health by the Scion area along with huge amounts of Evasion. This can all be turned into armor with Iron Reflexes.

Witch can grab those circles, but can't turn them into anything else and already has a ton of energy shield available to her. Very easy to grab the two EV/ES circles in the shadow area, the Armor/ES circle by AOF, and go Chaos Inoculation with plenty of damage. Can't say the same for life. It's a pain to go life on a witch, and that's what I'm doing right now.

[REMOVED BY ADMIN]

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Malice wrote:

As someone else already pointed out, with that 12% node you're effectively getting 3.5 nodes for only 3 points, which is pretty efficient. If linked they'd probably be nerfed down to 8%.

I personally don't have a problem with that cluster. It's only because of the visual proximity of the two life clusters that you're frustrated by it.
If for instance, the other three clusters were visually placed on the other side of the intersection near the wrecking ball notable, you probably would never have made this thread.

Same thing IMO for the arguments about connecting the inner and outer "rings". The duelist golem's blood and the two templar +20 strength notables are the only examples of the inner and outer connected by life. In all the other areas you have to either go around along a highway, go through charges (marauder, witch, shadow, ranger, duelist), or some other build specific nodes (eg fending/legendary swordsman, wandslinger's prowess/breath of rime). I mean, I probably would have taken whispers of doom more often if I could have got there easily through a big juicy 4x8 2x12 life cluster.

I think it's simply a matter of the fact that you want as many life nodes as you can get, and they are (visually) tantalisingly close yet out of reach. There are hundreds of places on the tree where if you just added one link between two nodes, it could make some arbitrary build I make way better.


If you have an argument about that area in general needing more life nodes, I'll listen, but at the moment I think you're all just getting trolled by the visual layout.

The 8/8/12 life nodes aren't as efficient as you think.

The path around those 2 8/8/12 clusters are really long, and you'll need at least 1 extra point just to reach them, meaning you'll need at least 4 points for 8/8/12. The only time it will be 3 points for them is if you've taken the crit multiplier or ranger melee weapon nodes (and even then, the path to get to those nodes is really long and very optional).

Meanwhile, there are other life clusters on efficient paths like Thick Skin, giving 8/8/18 for 3 points, or clusters with loads of 8% life nodes and/or related life nodes. For example the 4 life nodes below Scion's evasion wheel, if you want to take nodes near the Duelist/Ranger area you have to pass those 4 life nodes, therefore you can spend 4 points for 8/8/8/8 life nodes instead of 4 points for 8/8/12 life nodes.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

I'm trying to see how any of this addresses my issue of life being discouraged on Shadow *even more than* Witch. Am I missing something?

All I see is the Shadow is *meant* to go CI, which can be reinforced with the proximity of Ghost Reaver, but I always viewed that as a Claw-centric move, not crit/dagger.

Also, CI is typically seen as a mid-to-high level move. I was clearly talking about the first 40 or so levels, where it'd be insane to go CI, especially as self-found.

So if this is right, then the Shadow has no recourse but to...respec at some point out of life and into CI? That's bloody stupid.

Just a concern...

Worrying about the first 40 levels is pointless as nothing there matters and its rushed so quickly its existence is moot, I completed those levels with ease on a scion without spending a single passive point or leveling a single skill gem at all on domination without dying once on a recent attempt.... and I was still killing rogue exiles + bosses in both scepter of god and cruel mode with utter ease with a level 1 spectral throw while solo.


The only real balance concerns that likely should be addressed are those end and post game viability options such as mapping.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

I'm trying to see how any of this addresses my issue of life being discouraged on Shadow *even more than* Witch. Am I missing something?

All I see is the Shadow is *meant* to go CI, which can be reinforced with the proximity of Ghost Reaver, but I always viewed that as a Claw-centric move, not crit/dagger.

Also, CI is typically seen as a mid-to-high level move. I was clearly talking about the first 40 or so levels, where it'd be insane to go CI, especially as self-found.

So if this is right, then the Shadow has no recourse but to...respec at some point out of life and into CI? That's bloody stupid.

There is nothing about claws that emphasis going CI over crit daggers. You could argue that claws gravitate more towards life steal and ghost reaver (since life steal is an implicit mod for claws), however if you are going CI you pretty much have blood rage, which gives you free lifesteal anyways

Thats really another discussion though, I think that blood rage should be remade so CI characters don't get a free pass on it (maybe make the lifesteal less if you aren't on low life and making it more if you are on low life)

CI is something that appears natural choice for shadow, I definitely agree with that

Evasion/Life is more of an issue with duelist evasion builds, particularly the ones that go phase acrobatics, and these builds have real issues when it comes to health. The evasion/max life nodes are pretty shit, in fact the only good node there is thick skin

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

I'm trying very hard to remain civil in replying to this, but your post is ignorant (plenty of players stop playing at the end of normal), irrelevant (this is about the Shadow and perhaps Ranger, not your cheesy as fuck Scion) and quite frankly derailing (it's not about end-game balance vs early game balance).

Please stick to the topic at hand or just don't post here. Thank you.

Its very relevant in that arguing about viability at a point that having no passives at all works just fine is moot. Thus the only times it really matters is when damage scales so high that it becomes critical to get your build as efficient as possible and survival a serious issue. If we're talking about making things work and wheter they are useful or not it doesn't make much sense to include the levels that everything works regardless of what we do because the problem hasn't presented itself yet.... at low levels gear solves any issue and can hide any flaw in the skill tree easily.


Overall on the rest of what was said about it being less useful (less efficient) then what was invested in terms of obtaining both sides of that setup in comparison to what others have I had no issue with what the op said and saw no reason to repost. I can't really argue with what the OP said in that node circle is sorta meh when the cost to take both sides is factored in and I usually only grab one side and move on presently... maybe something like linking both sides would add a little more hp at a little more efficient pathing but it still feels like just a bandaid in the end.


As far as to a solution on what can be done to make it more attractive, I still have to think about it. Its more then a simple connection issue at play here and revolves back around to why we need these large stacks of hp just to survive in the first place and why we still play connect the life nodes with a large amount of our passives.


However....They fixed a lot of hp issues by combining more hp boosts into other hybrid nodes but its still something ever present at end game and at times makes me wonder why these nodes couldn't be combined into other hybrid att/def nodes and the whole ring just removed instead of trying to make it attractive enough to spend that many points on. So at times I have to wonder about fixing the pathing versus just getting rid of nodes like this and simply merging their effects with pre-existing nodes.... or possibly lowering the damage curve slightly so nodes like these would be obsolete and removable from the tree entirely.



edit- oh, and this thread is about a cluster of HP nodes in the shadow section of the skill tree and has nothing to with the shadow class directly.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

I would argue that the implicit life steal makes ghost reaver+CI more 'natural' for a Shadow than dagger -- that and GR was introduced on a unique claw.

Yup, but with blood rage and CI, the usefulness of claws isn't really apparent, at least as long as everyone goes CI on shadow, which they pretty much do these days

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Again: if CI is the natural choice for Shadow, then for God's sake improve his ES options and get rid of the half-arsed Evasion.

CI does seem as a natural fit for shadow, especially when combined with evasion. It matches his playstyle, evading means completely avoiding the damage, which increases the window of opportunity to regen your ES. Then you have things like ghost reaver which work great with CI builds, as you don't have to worry about life anymore

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Personally I don't see CI as the natural choice for Shadow. It just happens to be north of him. I don't think ANY keystone should be a natural choice for a class, in fact, and any keystone that is that essential is probably a failure of a keystone, given they're meant to be 'game changing' 'paradigm shifts'.

The Acrobatics/phase Acrobatics keystones *are* natural for an avoidance-based Shadow (which to me fits his persona much more than relying on a shit-tonne of energy shield), but once you take those, all that ES from the ES/EV is sort of wasted.

It's just a mess, really. Shadow's always been a mess and I think he always will be. GGG failed to give him any real identity through the Skilldrasil as the Int/Dex hybrid. The other two hybrids work really well: Templar as str/int combines the two to be a great mixture of elemental and melee; the Duelist, as str/dex, has armour and evasion as well as unmatched attack speed and excellent melee damage.

What is the Shadow by comparison as an Int/Dex hybrid? Either/or. The two don't combine well.

They could -- Int branch focusing on global crits, dex on evasion, linked by a bit more life/mana/regen would make a pretty damn good combination for either melee OR caster/ranged -- but instead we have the int part pushing crap like cast speed, elemental damage and...more elemental damage. The life/mana link is pretty weak, and, to bring this base to Esco's original post: once the Shadow leaves the starting area, life options are still pretty damn crap.

Little wonder people just twink Shadows into CI.

I do see it as a natural choice, both in terms of design, theme and practicality. There is a reason why almost every shadow specs into CI at some point. There are however definite issues, as you have pointed out. Shadow does have plenty of ES options, there are the 2 nullification node groups, and there is the ES nodes around the CI area. Shadow at most will typically only miss the 2-3 ES nodes around the witch area.

There is obviously the massive cluster north of the scion, but thats just as hard for witch as it is for shadow

Phase acrobatics, something which begs to be a keystone that shadows should use, don't, because of the massive ES penalty. So its now pretty much reserved for life evasion duelists, who end up using endurance charges to make up for having shitty armor

I mean thematically speaking, shadow is meant to be a hit and run character, who combines the high crit chance style damage/ES of the witch with the avoidance (evasion) and attack speed/accuracy of the ranger. So having evasion (ranger/dex based) mixed with ES (witch/INT based) makes definite sense. As a shadow, you should be going evasion and ES, so CI is the natural choice for that

Looks like controlled HP gain to me.

Any classes based on INT (Shadow is DEX/INT but it still count) should have limited ways to get more HP, even more limited if you're a pure INT class like the Witch. That's exactly what is going on if you look at the tree, like those 3x8% HP nodes, there is a reason for those. Such classes are required to spend/waste more points to get more of what they aren't designed for, I don't see a problem with that, welcome to RPGs! :) caster classes with a equal or higher HP potential than melee? not gonna happen.

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Warrax wrote:

Looks like controlled HP gain to me.

Any classes based on INT (Shadow is DEX/INT but it still count) should have limited ways to get more HP, even more limited if you're a pure INT class like the Witch. That's exactly what is going on if you look at the tree, like those 3x8% HP nodes, there is a reason for those. Such classes are required to spend/waste more points to get more of what they aren't designed for, I don't see a problem with that, welcome to RPGs! :) caster classes with a equal or higher HP potential than melee? not gonna happen.

The passives in question are in a pure dex area with no ES and barely any INT for 10+ passives. The shadow stuff is a derailment of the thread, discussing shadow's meta identity.

Also the problem is there's no such thing as hybrid toons. Everyone either goes life, CI/low life or life + EB. It's too difficult to roll decent ES and life on gear so you end up with either a low life or low ES pool. If things are going to stay this way, and the end game is still going to have high damage/one shot mechanics then it's required that all classes have access to be able to counter this incoming damage. As the highest damage bosses are elemental now and there's very few ways to counter it (phase acro being the only native one to the dex/int side of the tree, which can't be used with ES effectively).

So the common stereotypes of casters having lower life can't really apply in POE as there's no "caster" class, there's just caster passives. I mean there's fire damage passives between mara/duelist, just because INT has more doesn't mean casters only exist there.

Also IMO, evasion is much better as a life tank than armor is because of armor's steady DR while evasion has to always be prepared to be one shot.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

The Acrobatics/phase Acrobatics keystones *are* natural for an avoidance-based Shadow (which to me fits his persona much more than relying on a shit-tonne of energy shield), but once you take those, all that ES from the ES/EV is sort of wasted.

It's just a mess, really. Shadow's always been a mess and I think he always will be. GGG failed to give him any real identity through the Skilldrasil as the Int/Dex hybrid. The other two hybrids work really well: Templar as str/int combines the two to be a great mixture of elemental and melee; the Duelist, as str/dex, has armour and evasion as well as unmatched attack speed and excellent melee damage.

What is the Shadow by comparison as an Int/Dex hybrid? Either/or. The two don't combine well.

The way acrobatics works is one of the dumbest thing in the tree imho, mixing a primary and a secondary defense and halving them makes no sense =/.
Why would life feat more than ES to dodging mechanism ????


You are saying that dext and int don't combine well, I honestly thing that you are wrong for that.
I'm playing a CI + evasion/block based char and the whole thing works pretty well.
Now, the fact that CI is in 90%+ of the case a must-have for any ES based build may be a problem, that could need some work.