Curse immunity map Affix hurts skill diversity

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Natharias wrote:

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Jiero wrote:

Punishment being able to kill physical damage using mobs without the need for other support skills (they just add efficiency to make it worthwhile) as it reflects their own damage back to them, you said curses can never kill no matter what and that is false. Having supports to make a skill more effective is typical in this game anyway. Boring? yep, but still possible

so learn to read?

...and it would take forever for Punishment to kill some mobs. I didn't include this because it reflects so little damage for how much you will take.

Perhaps you should read between the lines and learn to play and not tell me to learn to read. You are the one who needs to.

P.S. If you know of a possible Punishment build, please, by all means, link it for me so I may stand corrected. Until then, learn to read.

NO you said NEVER, not that it does but that you choose to ignore it and failed to understand what is written repeatedly. Never is a absolute that allows for zero exclusions.





Of which I stated in my very first post, so obviously you refused to read it already. It doesn't matter how much damage my skeletons take in reference to damage reflect when my totem makes an infinite amount of them faster then they die.

I can easily surround something like the blacksmith with triple stacked reflecting skeletons (thorns, punishment, necro aegis+ supreme spiked shield), add on minion instability and then amp the damage up through sources like vulnerability and 3 stacks of shock. When it doesn't matter how fast he kills those skeletons because he cannot carve through them faster then they are made, its a matter of time before he dies.... so anything beyond that is safe damage because he's not likely to target anything other then the army of skeletons humping him. Its only real variance from typical summoner builds is couple different skills slotted (mainly punishment), necro aegis, spectre type taken and a supreme spiked shield.


Its just added damage to what a summoner would normally do, and just needs them to take minion instability and look at added necromantic aegis with a supreme spiked shield along with a specific spectre and a few easily obtained skill gems. Pretty much a way for a summoner to hard counter melee and/or physical damage using mobs. Its not a specific build that can be linked because its only a TACTIC that can be used to counter specific mob types.





edit - Although to be honest, any build could in theory make use of damage reflecting skeletons with a spell totem to take down mobs that they don't want to facetank or need to distract while they kite it.

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Nurvus wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

Simple question: When do curses kill things?

Answer: They don't.

Instead of crying "NERF! NERF! NERF!", perhaps you should try playing the game and finding a way around the "curse immunity problem"?

Curses are rather nice, but I have yet to see the make or break a build. Your damaging abilities make your build. Why? Curses only increase the effectiveness of something or decrease the effectiveness of something for an enemy. Your damaging abilities kill your enemies and, if applicable, grant any life/mana recovery.

TLDR: L2P.

TLDR: Learn to be less obnoxious.

A build is more than numbers - it is flavor as well.
If you make a build that focuses on fire damage, you can always deal fire damage, even if you deal it with reduced effectiveness.

So if I make a build that focuses on curses, I want to be able to apply my curses to every damn freaking mob in the game, even if with reduced effectiveness.

It has been suggested to replace "Curse Immune" with "Can have 1 less Curse".
That makes the mob effectively "Curse Immune" for builds that can only place 1 Curse at a time, while weakening (but without ruining the whole theme) builds that can place more than 1 Curse at a time.

Still, I prefer "reduced effectiveness".

I'll be less obnoxious when children learn to man up. The only immunity we have in this game is curse immunity. Back in Diablo, which I will assume you have not played, had immunities to every single type of damage but no curse immunity. Path of Exile is a game for kids compared to the first two Diablo games. Much harder gameplay back then.

If you deal only fire damage, you deal only fire damage. So what? Fire damage can still kill anything in Path of Exile. Curses do not kill.

Now, curses are not a viable option to kill anything as they do not do direct damage nor are they a viable option to base a build on. Why?

First off, enemies can only have one curse at any given time. This can be raised by one from the skill tree, two with rings, and one last curse by Windscream.

Given that you have five curses taking up five slots of your sockets, you take two seconds to put every curse on every enemy. Curses usually need to be cast twice in some situations especially as new enemies come up. So let's say it takes about 3.5 seconds with cast speed and double cursing taken into account. Every other build I know of, by this point, could have cleared or be at least a good part on the way on finishing any mobs it's fighting. If it takes you longer then it's a rare magic/rare group with certain mods that are meant to challenge your build.

Could you please tell me why you would want to spend all that time casting curses that don't do diddly squat when you can be killing things? There isn't any logical reason, I'll tell you that right now.

Why do I not count punishment in being able to directly kill mobs? I've already stated it but I'll restate it because I doubt anyone reads anything they don't quote. Punishment does not send back enough damage to the source until max level. Monsters will me doing far more damage to you than you will be reflecting to them. It also only reflects physical damage, so magical based enemies will not take any damage. Kinda need a non-curse to deal with those, don't you think? Oh, wait, you need non-curse skills to kill anything.

I have said before in previous threads that "one less curse" would be an acceptable alternative to "curse immunity", but nothing less. There is a difference in something as absolute as immunity and something as flexible as effectiveness.

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Jiero wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

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Jiero wrote:

Punishment being able to kill physical damage using mobs without the need for other support skills (they just add efficiency to make it worthwhile) as it reflects their own damage back to them, you said curses can never kill no matter what and that is false. Having supports to make a skill more effective is typical in this game anyway. Boring? yep, but still possible

so learn to read?

...and it would take forever for Punishment to kill some mobs. I didn't include this because it reflects so little damage for how much you will take.

Perhaps you should read between the lines and learn to play and not tell me to learn to read. You are the one who needs to.

P.S. If you know of a possible Punishment build, please, by all means, link it for me so I may stand corrected. Until then, learn to read.

NO you said NEVER, not that it does but that you choose to ignore it and failed to understand what is written repeatedly. Never is a absolute that allows for zero exclusions.





Of which I stated in my very first post, so obviously you refused to read it already. It doesn't matter how much damage my skeletons take in reference to damage reflect when my totem makes an infinite amount of them faster then they die.

I can easily surround something like the blacksmith with triple stacked reflecting skeletons (thorns, punishment, necro aegis+ supreme spiked shield), add on minion instability and then amp the damage up through sources like vulnerability and 3 stacks of shock. When it doesn't matter how fast he kills those skeletons because he cannot carve through them faster then they are made, its a matter of time before he dies.... so anything beyond that is safe damage because he's not likely to target anything other then the army of skeletons humping him. Its only real variance from typical summoner builds is couple different skills slotted (mainly punishment), necro aegis, spectre type taken and a supreme spiked shield.


Its just added damage to what a summoner would normally do, and just needs them to take minion instability and look at added necromantic aegis with a supreme spiked shield along with a specific spectre and a few easily obtained skill gems. Pretty much a way for a summoner to hard counter melee and/or physical damage using mobs. Its not a specific build that can be linked because its only a TACTIC that can be used to counter specific mob types.





edit - Although to be honest, any build could in theory make use of damage reflecting skeletons with a spell totem to take down mobs that they don't want to facetank or need to distract while they kite it.

And I explained why I said never. Also, I did read your first post. Skeletons linked with Life and Damage with Minion Instability will clear many times faster than unsupported skeletons with Punishment and Vulnerability. This is one of many reasons why I do not count Punishment when I speak about curses.

Another reason I do not count Punishment is the fact that not every single build is a summoner. Many people hate Vitality and say it sucks, and yet, it's the single best aura to run for summoners. Vitality and Punishment are the same. They are extremely situational and are not very reliable because of this. A non-minion build will almost never take Punishment as other curses apply much greater bonuses for them, while a minion build might consider it over others.

Skeletons + Life + Damage + Minion Instability + Flammability + Vulnerability = OVERKILL when they die. Imagine the burn damage on enemies if skeletons ignited enemies from MI-dying. Many times better than your "reflection" skeletons.

Perhaps I am arguing from the mindset of efficiency and clearing rate, while you are focusing only on what you would enjoy playing without care to efficiency or clear rate. Might want to keep that in mind. Also, do not mistake me for saying that what you are saying is impossible, just not nearly as viable as other proven methods.

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Natharias wrote:

And I explained why I said never. Also, I did read your first post. Skeletons linked with Life and Damage with Minion Instability will clear many times faster than unsupported skeletons with Punishment and Vulnerability. This is one of many reasons why I do not count Punishment when I speak about curses.

Another reason I do not count Punishment is the fact that not every single build is a summoner. Many people hate Vitality and say it sucks, and yet, it's the single best aura to run for summoners. Vitality and Punishment are the same. They are extremely situational and are not very reliable because of this. A non-minion build will almost never take Punishment as other curses apply much greater bonuses for them, while a minion build might consider it over others.

Skeletons + Life + Damage + Minion Instability + Flammability + Vulnerability = OVERKILL when they die. Imagine the burn damage on enemies if skeletons ignited enemies from MI-dying. Many times better than your "reflection" skeletons.

Perhaps I am arguing from the mindset of efficiency and clearing rate, while you are focusing only on what you would enjoy playing without care to efficiency or clear rate. Might want to keep that in mind. Also, do not mistake me for saying that what you are saying is impossible, just not nearly as viable as other proven methods.

I never said it was preferred and cared little for pure solo efficiency in terms of what is possible, I only said that it exists... you said it was utterly impossible and I disagreed so I made a post explaining that.

While using a culling magic find summoner build with a team as a direct support for them is sorta fun and actually does work well (with permastun zombies and a team to take out ranged elemental mobs), its not a true dedicated solo farming build on high end maps. Its not just summoners though, but ya they do benefit the most from it (I once saw a guy use it effectively with decoy totems though).

And btw skeleton minion reflection alone can stack to above 13k dps by itself (before shock stacking and only from the skeletons), which is a decent free addition (for a single click) to a summoner's damage against a single high profile melee/physical target that they can also spam other attacks on during. Adding lightning thorns + arc spectres eases the restrictions on what mobs can take reflect damage and helps in stacking shock to get that nice teamwide 90% bonus. If you start adding in zombies, spectres, converted mobs, dominated mobs, animated weapons/guardians and teammates to the reflect pool it can amp up pretty fast. If a mob is using splashed melee attacks like leap slam then the fight is over as soon as it starts (blacksmith kills himself so fast its a joke).

Against those giant heavy hitters though minion instability loses a LOT of its power because the skeletons cannot be one shot killed for it to work (no curses means no enfeeble btw), they must survive at least one hit. With some mods on some maps that is not going to happen, and the blacksmith doing leapslam is a great example of it. With some map mods he will one shot all of your skeletons and take no minion instability damage, but he always takes 100% reflect damage everytime he touches them (11% + 260 + 260, boosted by the other curses and shock or damage migration iirc). Curse immune maps with heavy damage cripples both, but the instability build takes a much heavier weakness because it can cease to work at all on him.

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Natharias wrote:

Spoiler

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Nurvus wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

Simple question: When do curses kill things?

Answer: They don't.

Instead of crying "NERF! NERF! NERF!", perhaps you should try playing the game and finding a way around the "curse immunity problem"?

Curses are rather nice, but I have yet to see the make or break a build. Your damaging abilities make your build. Why? Curses only increase the effectiveness of something or decrease the effectiveness of something for an enemy. Your damaging abilities kill your enemies and, if applicable, grant any life/mana recovery.

TLDR: L2P.

TLDR: Learn to be less obnoxious.

A build is more than numbers - it is flavor as well.
If you make a build that focuses on fire damage, you can always deal fire damage, even if you deal it with reduced effectiveness.

So if I make a build that focuses on curses, I want to be able to apply my curses to every damn freaking mob in the game, even if with reduced effectiveness.

It has been suggested to replace "Curse Immune" with "Can have 1 less Curse".
That makes the mob effectively "Curse Immune" for builds that can only place 1 Curse at a time, while weakening (but without ruining the whole theme) builds that can place more than 1 Curse at a time.

Still, I prefer "reduced effectiveness".

I'll be less obnoxious when children learn to man up. The only immunity we have in this game is curse immunity. Back in Diablo, which I will assume you have not played, had immunities to every single type of damage but no curse immunity. Path of Exile is a game for kids compared to the first two Diablo games. Much harder gameplay back then.

Spoiler

If you deal only fire damage, you deal only fire damage. So what? Fire damage can still kill anything in Path of Exile. Curses do not kill.

Now, curses are not a viable option to kill anything as they do not do direct damage nor are they a viable option to base a build on. Why?

First off, enemies can only have one curse at any given time. This can be raised by one from the skill tree, two with rings, and one last curse by Windscream.

Given that you have five curses taking up five slots of your sockets, you take two seconds to put every curse on every enemy. Curses usually need to be cast twice in some situations especially as new enemies come up. So let's say it takes about 3.5 seconds with cast speed and double cursing taken into account. Every other build I know of, by this point, could have cleared or be at least a good part on the way on finishing any mobs it's fighting. If it takes you longer then it's a rare magic/rare group with certain mods that are meant to challenge your build.

Could you please tell me why you would want to spend all that time casting curses that don't do diddly squat when you can be killing things? There isn't any logical reason, I'll tell you that right now.

Why do I not count punishment in being able to directly kill mobs? I've already stated it but I'll restate it because I doubt anyone reads anything they don't quote. Punishment does not send back enough damage to the source until max level. Monsters will me doing far more damage to you than you will be reflecting to them. It also only reflects physical damage, so magical based enemies will not take any damage. Kinda need a non-curse to deal with those, don't you think? Oh, wait, you need non-curse skills to kill anything.

I have said before in previous threads that "one less curse" would be an acceptable alternative to "curse immunity", but nothing less. There is a difference in something as absolute as immunity and something as flexible as effectiveness.

1 - This is a game. Games are not meant to be boring chores - they are meant to be fun.
If you make a character that is specifically designed to maximize the efficiency of Curses and the game completely invalidates your specialty with an Immunity, it is BAD DESIGN.
Specially when it is the ONLY immunity in the game.

If GGG doesn't want people to specialize in Curses, remove that option.

2 - If this was Diablo, you wouldn't have Avatar of Fire.
You are one of the children that needs to man up - this is NOT Diablo.
Oh, and I played Diablo alot. Loved alot of things about Diablo 2, but immunities wasn't one of them, and the game was (and is) unbalanced as fuck.

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Nurvus wrote:

1 - This is a game. Games are not meant to be boring chores - they are meant to be fun.
If you make a character that is specifically designed to maximize the efficiency of Curses and the game completely invalidates your specialty with an Immunity, it is BAD DESIGN.
Specially when it is the ONLY immunity in the game.

If GGG doesn't want people to specialize in Curses, remove that option.

2 - If this was Diablo, you wouldn't have Avatar of Fire.
You are one of the children that needs to man up - this is NOT Diablo.
Oh, and I played Diablo alot. Loved alot of things about Diablo 2, but immunities wasn't one of them, and the game was (and is) unbalanced as fuck.

...and fun means difficulty for most. And people like you want to remove something that makes this game even slightly difficult. There is only one immunity and you want to remove it. Immunity is not bad design. It is meant to prevent players from making and doing only one thing. Bad design is making only one immunity and not adding any others. THAT is bad design.

GGG doesn't allow or disallow anyone from using any gem. That choice is left up to the player. However, the player must decide what gems to use with other gems they have.

What's this about AoF? We aren't talking about that. I'm also sorry to hear that you didn't understand anything of what I said.

What I want:
-More immunities.
-Less kids whining about content.
-More monster life and damage for each party member.

What you want:
-No immunities.
-Whine about content you can't deal with.

I wonder who the kid is here? I bet if I get a probation it'll be because I'm arguing with you. Furthermore it'll probably be because you message GGG instead of them stumbling upon this one thread out of many.

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Natharias wrote:

...and fun means difficulty for most. And people like you want to remove something that makes this game even slightly difficult. There is only one immunity and you want to remove it. Immunity is not bad design. It is meant to prevent players from making and doing only one thing. Bad design is making only one immunity and not adding any others. THAT is bad design.

GGG doesn't allow or disallow anyone from using any gem. That choice is left up to the player. However, the player must decide what gems to use with other gems they have.

What's this about AoF? We aren't talking about that. I'm also sorry to hear that you didn't understand anything of what I said.

What I want:
-More immunities.
-Less kids whining about content.
-More monster life and damage for each party member.

What you want:
-No immunities.
-Whine about content you can't deal with.

I wonder who the kid is here? I bet if I get a probation it'll be because I'm arguing with you. Furthermore it'll probably be because you message GGG instead of them stumbling upon this one thread out of many.

Immunities don't really make the game more difficult or easier, they work both ways to render parts of the game pointless.


Lets take stun immunity. If both me and kole are both 100% stun immune, then stun as a mechanic is worthless. It both makes the game harder because I can't stun him, and makes it easier because he cannot stun me back.


If we change stun immunity to a 100% decrease in stun duration, then on most stuff it stays the same... essentially stun immune. But on those mobs or players that dedicate themselves to stun, they can add back in stun duration boosts to get stun working again to some affect.

Its the same exact thing as stun immunity for the most part but adds back in the value of keeping stun as a game mechanic because something like kole (assuming they give him stun boosts) would STILL have a chance to stun even a normally stun immune character and on non stun immune characters he would be MORE dangerous then normal as he would stun for longer periods of time then normal mobs. But that marauder wielding a stun based build with a maul would be able to give kole a taste of his own medicine since he can crank the duration back up and lower the stun threshold (which is something funny since stun works SO much better when solo with the lower hp because it can render a lot of the game a joke).



That is the difference between just making whole parts of the game absolutely worthless, and making it so they are that way with methods to bypass or pierce those immunities to some extent.


It also can STILL mean that mobs can be left immune for special cases, such as some mobs having -200% stun duration reduction and there only being +100% stun duration increases possible (just examples). Such a mob then would stay stun immune no matter what because its a special case meant to be always stun immune.

Well, in my opinion, seeing as how curses can effectively negate quite a few map mods, they are very powerful. There are already several other map mods that completely disallow certain very powerful builds from even thinking of attempting the map. Curses are very powerful tools for any build. All you have to do to avoid an anti curse map would be to reroll the map in question.

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Natharias wrote:

What I want:
-More immunities.
-Less kids whining about content.
-More monster life and damage for each party member.

What you want:
-No immunities.
-Whine about content you can't deal with.

I wonder who the kid is here? I bet if I get a probation it'll be because I'm arguing with you. Furthermore it'll probably be because you message GGG instead of them stumbling upon this one thread out of many.

Immunities are a mechanic used by those who ran out of ideas.
Lag and Desynch brings difficulty too. Maybe we should have more of it, then, since difficulty equals fun.

I want real difficulty.
You want bad design.

I wonder how you are able to consider curse immunity a difficulty: It doesn't make the game harder, it simply part of it (Curses) pointless/trivial.

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Nurvus wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

What I want:
-More immunities.
-Less kids whining about content.
-More monster life and damage for each party member.

What you want:
-No immunities.
-Whine about content you can't deal with.

I wonder who the kid is here? I bet if I get a probation it'll be because I'm arguing with you. Furthermore it'll probably be because you message GGG instead of them stumbling upon this one thread out of many.

Immunities are a mechanic used by those who ran out of ideas.
Lag and Desynch brings difficulty too. Maybe we should have more of it, then, since difficulty equals fun.

I want real difficulty.
You want bad design.

I wonder how you are able to consider curse immunity a difficulty: It doesn't make the game harder, it simply part of it (Curses) pointless/trivial.

I'm going to leave you with a little example until you want to listen.

A player runs into a room and the first thing he does is throw a curse on every single monster in the room. If curses always work, he will always throw the curses and immediately follow up with the ability that best works with that curse. However, if he runs into that room and does not realize that the curse does not work, or has not applied, he will wonder why it happened or realize that the mob is curse immune. This will cause him to react differently than any other mob that is not curse immune.

Bad design? Run out of ideas? Not difficult to deal with immunity?

Raging on the forums is a much easier alternative than playing the game.