Concentrated Effect on Proliferated Ignite Damage tested (with numbers)

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

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Reizoko wrote:

Fireball explodes in an AoE on hit, but the hit itself does not count as AoE.

Are you absolutely sure about that one?

Not 100%, but that is how I understand the skill. Similar to how Lightning Strike works. Lightning Strike is an actual weapon hit + 3 projectiles. Fireball is the actual Projectile + the AoE that occurs on hit.
Isn't that also the reason why AoE damage increases weren't shown in the fireball tooltip?

edit: But why wouldn't Concentrated Effect increase burn damage? That doesn't make sense to me. Burn is calculated off the initial hit. So if the initial hit is higher, burn HAS to be higher. Or am I making a mistake here?

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Reizoko wrote:

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

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Reizoko wrote:

Fireball explodes in an AoE on hit, but the hit itself does not count as AoE.

Are you absolutely sure about that one?

Not 100%, but that is how I understand the skill. Similar to how Lightning Strike works. Lightning Strike is an actual weapon hit + 3 projectiles. Fireball is the actual Projectile + the AoE that occurs on hit.
Isn't that also the reason why AoE damage increases weren't shown in the fireball tooltip?

edit: But why wouldn't Concentrated Effect increase burn damage? That doesn't make sense to me. Burn is calculated off the initial hit. So if the initial hit is higher, burn HAS to be higher. Or am I making a mistake here?

You do not understand the op's experiment. Crackmonster already corrected you on the property of fireball, you are wrong.

CE always buffed fireball, and increase its damage on hit. Since ignite is a function of the initial damage, the burn is therefore increased as well proportional to the initial damage. However, what the OP experiment show that CE does not directly effect the burn itself, in other words, there is no "more burn damage" as implied from the patch note. The burning damage simply scaled off 20% of the initial hit(which can be buffed by CE to make it hit harder) for 4 seconds, that is all.

I conducted some testing using different methodology aiming to verify this test, and got the exact opposite result. It would seem either Crackmonster's were invalid or the mechanic has since changed.

http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/2zql9i/iron_grip_and_bleed/cplx9bw

And yes I know this is a massive necro but this is the relevant thread for discussion and since it can still be found via google/etc it makes sense to post here.

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Fearmonger wrote:

I conducted some testing using different methodology aiming to verify this test, and got the exact opposite result. It would seem either Crackmonster's were invalid or the mechanic has since changed.

http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/2zql9i/iron_grip_and_bleed/cplx9bw

And yes I know this is a massive necro but this is the relevant thread for discussion and since it can still be found via google/etc it makes sense to post here.

Well, aren't you proud of your data? :P You're 100% correct afaik but the reason why Crackmonster's data is wrong is because he was using Fireball. This was found in recent thread in gameplay help and I believe raics tested the same results you did with flameblast but not with fireball.

If AoE damage causes the burn, the burn damage seems to benefit from Conc. Eff. as well. But when Fireball causes the burn (even through its explosion which is AoE), the burn effect works as if it was caused by a non-AoE hit (fire ball can do this kind of damage throuhg piercing for example) and it doesn't benefit from Conc. Eff.

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Grughal wrote:

If AoE damage causes the burn, the burn damage seems to benefit from Conc. Eff. as well. But when Fireball causes the burn (even through its explosion which is AoE), the burn effect works as if it was caused by a non-AoE hit (fire ball can do this kind of damage throuhg piercing for example) and it doesn't benefit from Conc. Eff.

Ahhhh, so its a bug with Fireball. Found the thread you're talking about:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1211424/page/1
Well regardless, the answer is in this thread now so there's less misinformation, huzzah?

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Fearmonger wrote:

I conducted some testing using different methodology aiming to verify this test, and got the exact opposite result. It would seem either Crackmonster's were invalid or the mechanic has since changed.

http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/2zql9i/iron_grip_and_bleed/cplx9bw

And yes I know this is a massive necro but this is the relevant thread for discussion and since it can still be found via google/etc it makes sense to post here.

... that test makes no sense. The guy specifically said he _doesn't_ use ele prolif.

Burn damage from ele prolif is *arguably* area damage. Burn damage without ele prolif is _obviously not_ area damage.

There's no reason in the universe that flameblast without ele prolif should double dip from conc effect, unless it's a bug.

Fire trap, on the other hand, should absolutely double dip from conc effect, because the "burning ground" is an area of effect whose base damage is based on the final damage of the initial explosion, which was also an area of effect.

Other burn sources can only possibly take the second dip from conc effect if they're proliferating, but we need another test to see if that's happening in practice.

So, someone needs to do a better test, much more thorough than that stupid post on reddit that is just claiming something that makes no sense, that involves 10-stack flameblast plus elemental prolif.

Necro of the century, lol

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... that test makes no sense. The guy specifically said he _doesn't_ use ele prolif.

Burn damage from ele prolif is *arguably* area damage. Burn damage without ele prolif is _obviously not_ area damage.

There's no reason in the universe that flameblast without ele prolif should double dip from conc effect, unless it's a bug.

Fire trap, on the other hand, should absolutely double dip from conc effect, because the "burning ground" is an area of effect whose base damage is based on the final damage of the initial explosion, which was also an area of effect.

Other burn sources can only possibly take the second dip from conc effect if they're proliferating, but we need another test to see if that's happening in practice.

So, someone needs to do a better test, much more thorough than that stupid post on reddit that is just claiming something that makes no sense, that involves 10-stack flameblast plus elemental prolif.

Elemental Proliferation just spreads the strongest burn, it has no effect on damage whatsoever. I believe the reason why Flameblast "double dips" (it actually doesn't) in Concentrated Effect is because first the initial hit us AoE damage and thus get more multiplier and then the burn it inflicts is labeled as AoE damage (because it was caused by AoE hit) and thus benefits from Concentrated Effect "again". Same way Fire Pen affects ignites (boost both the initial hit and then for ignite resistances are checked again).

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Grughal wrote:

Elemental Proliferation just spreads the strongest burn, it has no effect on damage whatsoever. I believe the reason why Flameblast "double dips" (it actually doesn't) in Concentrated Effect is because first the initial hit us AoE damage and thus get more multiplier and then the burn it inflicts is labeled as AoE damage (because it was caused by AoE hit) and thus benefits from Concentrated Effect "again". Same way Fire Pen affects ignites (boost both the initial hit and then for ignite resistances are checked again).

That is not how these game mechanics work. I can imagine a world in which that his how this game's mechanics work, but that is not this one. Damage types do not carry over that way. Ignite damage is "damage", "burning damage", "fire damage", "elemental damage", and "damage over time", and is affected only by mods that affect those. Burning damage from other sources--like RF and Fire Trap--can be affected by conc effect, but ignite cannot. if what you were saying made any sense at all, then spell damage would also affect ignite damage caused by flameblast (because, hint hint, flameblast is a spell that deals spell damage), and it famously does not (it only affects the initial hit).

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Damage types do not carry over that way. Ignite damage is "damage", "burning damage", "fire damage", "elemental damage", and "damage over time", and is affected only by mods that affect those.

Actually, effects do inherit properties related to the way initial hit was dealt, it was explained by devs in detail following the DoT rework back then. If ignite was inflicted with a projectile it will also get projectile property, same goes for AoE.

If you don't trust your own devs, you can easily test it with melee splash, puncture and concentrated effect :)
If you link level 20 splash and level 1 conc effect to puncture you will notice that splashed targets bleed a lot faster than primary one because bleed double dips (sort of) on concentrated effect, if you put your theory into numbers, with that setup they would bleed roughly at the same rate.

Anyway, the test in this thread is valid but the conclusion isn't. I tested the whole thing with several AoE skills and it turned out fireball is bugged, its ignite doesn't seem to inherit AoE property like it should, I made a bug report about it back then, it will probably be fixed when they get around to it.