Glacial Hammer + Avatar of Fire + Cold to Fire

(base physical * (1 + increased))* more + (base lightning... etc

i guess thats how it goes down. each of the base damage types has its own function and can thus be applied for different skills w/ different more/less/increased/decreased modifiers.



€: also please stop talking about CTF that will soon be capture the flag ;)

from now on your official abbreviation for cold to fire shall be: "C->F". ty :p

cold specific was not meant to mean cold % passives, i was talking about everything that applies to cold, the WED is a final damage modifier and will not be applied twice.

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HexenLord wrote:

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VictorDoom wrote:

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HexenLord wrote:

Are you sure about this? Is it just physical damage that scales fully before being converted? I noticed that physical damage gets all of its modifiers before being converted to other elements. Ive never actually had it confirmed that elements get converted before modifiers apply.

Yes, thats why your calculations are mostly off, you assumed the damage gets increased BEFORE conversions...

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HexenLord wrote:

Ah, I did include WED in the cold damage, didn't catch that before.

That brings GH to somewhere around 16190 damage and IB to 11523.

This is with both of them having Melee Physical and WED. The biggest downside to use Glacial Hammer is the last support gem. With IB you can have multistrike, melee splash, and fire pen. With Glacial Hammer you have to give up one of these for Cold to Fire.

Glacial Hammer will still come out on top damage wise, but not if you count the explosions from IB linked with Melee Splash.

I guess maybe Glacial Hammer isn't the best idea after-all. Back to the drawing board?

yeah, and GH is at 16.190 with extra nodes in cold damage, and an extra link where IB hasnt ahd any icnreases with the points you would have used to get the cold damage, and of course it has a free link since it doesnt have CTF.

By just using added fire damage with IB instead of the CTF, we get 16.015 damage, now with the points you didnt use on the IB calculation that you sued for cold damage i assure you it would be more dps.

There are no cold specific nodes taken in my build. The 81% Comes from 40% Increased Elemental Damage with Weapons and 41% Increased Elemental Damage. IB wouldn't get a buff by spending the points elsewhere, all reachable fire damage nodes were taken anyway.

And by adding Added Fire Damage to IB, you have to give up either Multistrike, Melee Splash, or Fire Penetration. Giving up Fire Penetration is a no-go in an AoF build, and giving up Melee Splash is a no-go in an IB build. Are you sure Added Fire Damage is worth giving up Multistrike?

I said in place of CTF, not anything, since GH is using CTF im assuming thats an extra link, by just replacing that link with ADF on IB it would get to the same damn damage, you know exactly what i mean. 1 extra link and the damage is the same as you can see, with a bit of fiddling on the build i bet i can make it bigger anyway, its not rocket science.

IB is better in every way compared to glacial in this case.


just...think about it man, its not that hard.

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analdischarge wrote:

cold specific was not meant to mean cold % passives, i was talking about everything that applies to cold, the WED is a final damage modifier and will not be applied twice.

Which means that the WED applying to cold before it was converted was the only incorrect part of my conversion equation. I redid the math in a later post and Glacial Hammer still came out ahead of IB thanks to 81% increase to cold via passives.

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HexenLord wrote:

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analdischarge wrote:

cold specific was not meant to mean cold % passives, i was talking about everything that applies to cold, the WED is a final damage modifier and will not be applied twice.

Which means that the WED applying to cold before it was converted was the only incorrect part of my conversion equation. I redid the math in a later post and Glacial Hammer still came out ahead of IB thanks to 81% increase to cold via passives.

i literally just redid the math for you a page ago man, i just showed you that with that spec designed twards glacial hammer IB does the same damage by replacing 1 gem, the CTF......with a tweak i bet i can make it do more damage anyway..and its IB, which means massive aoe...


Now mooooving on(i fucking hope), another point i was trying to make is that going AoF might not be better than not going AoF because you may lose a link or two to leech gems, 1 for sure, the life leech. This means its a pretty substantial decrease in DPS, may not be worth going full elemental conversion, especially with melee non IB/BM builds.

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VictorDoom wrote:

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HexenLord wrote:

There are no cold specific nodes taken in my build. The 81% Comes from 40% Increased Elemental Damage with Weapons and 41% Increased Elemental Damage. IB wouldn't get a buff by spending the points elsewhere, all reachable fire damage nodes were taken anyway.

And by adding Added Fire Damage to IB, you have to give up either Multistrike, Melee Splash, or Fire Penetration. Giving up Fire Penetration is a no-go in an AoF build, and giving up Melee Splash is a no-go in an IB build. Are you sure Added Fire Damage is worth giving up Multistrike?

I said in place of CTF, not anything, since GH is using CTF im assuming thats an extra link, by just replacing that link with ADF on IB it would get to the same damn damage, you know exactly what i mean. 1 extra link and the damage is the same as you can see, with a bit of fiddling on the build i bet i can make it bigger anyway, its not rocket science.

IB is better in every way compared to glacial in this case.

Yeah I get what you're saying. I was just theory crafting based on the premise that you could get a nice boost in damage by taking the conversion through cold damage since all of its modifiers would apply before it was converted to fire. The problem with going Physical -> Cold -> Fire is that the extra gem slot that would be used by Cold to Fire could be trumped in a Physical -> Fire build just by throwing in Added fire Damage or Multistrike instead.

It still leaves the option open for spellcasters who want to go straight from Cold to fire, and get all of the elemental increases from both.

In that case, would %increased spell damage apply to the final number after the fire conversion, or would cold get it as well? Spell damage isn't mentioned in the conversion wiki, although I assume its applied to the final result of the conversion and not each phase.

spell damage increase will get applied at each stage, just not more spell damage.

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HexenLord wrote:

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VictorDoom wrote:

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HexenLord wrote:

There are no cold specific nodes taken in my build. The 81% Comes from 40% Increased Elemental Damage with Weapons and 41% Increased Elemental Damage. IB wouldn't get a buff by spending the points elsewhere, all reachable fire damage nodes were taken anyway.

And by adding Added Fire Damage to IB, you have to give up either Multistrike, Melee Splash, or Fire Penetration. Giving up Fire Penetration is a no-go in an AoF build, and giving up Melee Splash is a no-go in an IB build. Are you sure Added Fire Damage is worth giving up Multistrike?

I said in place of CTF, not anything, since GH is using CTF im assuming thats an extra link, by just replacing that link with ADF on IB it would get to the same damn damage, you know exactly what i mean. 1 extra link and the damage is the same as you can see, with a bit of fiddling on the build i bet i can make it bigger anyway, its not rocket science.

IB is better in every way compared to glacial in this case.

Yeah I get what you're saying. I was just theory crafting based on the premise that you could get a nice boost in damage by taking the conversion through cold damage since all of its modifiers would apply before it was converted to fire. The problem with going Physical -> Cold -> Fire is that the extra gem slot that would be used by Cold to Fire could be trumped in a Physical -> Fire build just by throwing in Added fire Damage or Multistrike instead.

It still leaves the option open for spellcasters who want to go straight from Cold to fire, and get all of the elemental increases from both.

In that case, would %increased spell damage apply to the final number after the fire conversion, or would cold get it as well? Spell damage isn't mentioned in the conversion wiki, although I assume its applied to the final result of the conversion and not each phase.

As a spellcaster build going full fire from cold is an extremely good plan because of the burning crit(amazing clear speed)

the dps on spellcasting is a lot easier, lets say youre going cold to fire from spells, if you get all the increases for this, as in %cold damage, % fire damage, % spell damage then the damage at the end which we can assume is at 100% fire, from cold, would get increased by all 3 of these types of nodes at the same time because it doesn't really matter when you increase it, there arent any special mods here

its a nice way to get a lot of dps from tree as a spellcaster, you can get around 200% icnrease to your damage this way without going glass cannon, its going to be OP as shit and im probably going to do it lol..

I guess Ice Shot for a ranged character is pretty much in the dark as well. Even with the ability to drop Melee Splash and Melee Physical Damage

Ice Shot + Cold to Fire + Fire Penetration + Weapon Elemental Damage + GMP

This would be the basis. You would need additional Projectiles to even consider using it, so GMP has to be in there. Your last options are Added Fire, Multistrike, or LGoH/Life Leech. I guess it would be do-able, but the increases to cold or even elemental damage available around the ranger or duelist starting area would make this one a tough push.

Glacial Hammer only does more damage than Infernal Blow if you have +% increased cold damage in addition to other +% increased fire/elemental/physical damage. But you are usually better off grabbing these other modifiers instead of cold damage, in which case Infernal Blow will do the same exact damage. Plus you get explosions.

What HexenLord and many others(including myself at one point) do incorrectly is to multiply the modifiers several times. In HexenLord's example, he factored in elemental and WEP damage twice. All modifiers are ONLY ever factored in once. GGG did it this way on purpose. It is the same reason why Evasion/Armor bonuses are not factored twice in an Iron Reflexes conversion to armor.

Here is another thread on this topic

And the Damage Conversion Wiki

Edit: Now if you ran Hatred with Glacial Hammer + Cold to Fire, you already need the CtF for GH anyway so you get Hatred+ all cold, fire, elemental, and physical damage bonuses(applied once) for essentially nothing.

Another link for more info