Long cooldowns to diversify combat?

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enkidu44 wrote:

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fsg wrote:

actually, skills with sub 2 second cooldowns are fine. 10 sec cooldown skills have no place in an ARPG however.

Why? Seem's like an arbitrary statement. D3 has plenty of skills like that, so does Torch2.

That's probably one of the reason he is here in the PoE forum and not in the D3 or TL2 forum.

Also, just because some game have them doesn't make them good.

That said, me posting this doesn't mean that I agree with him. Nor do I disagree. If the skill is powerfull enough a high cooldown can be appropriate though.

Diversity is an illusion when it is created by cooldowns.

When you choose to use one skill, not because you like the skill, nor because the skill is good, but because other better skills are in cooldowns, do you feel rewarded, or do you feel penalized?

The above is the key design concept that made Diablo 3 so... different... from its prequels. Many aspects, especially the skill system, are penalty-based instead of reward-based. That is, you always get something (e.g. a skill) that sucks in the first place. As you progress, you don't feel it get stronger, instead it sucks less and less, and if you are lucky, it finally sucks no more. No joy in the entire process.

Cooldowns is also devs telling you how to play, it eventually reduces the diversity in play-styles.

Another thing is my experiences differ, in most encounters, my PoE characters generally require me to use 2 short buffs, a curse, an AoE skill, a single target skill, and sometimes a totem, and needless to say the auras beforehand.

However, in D3 endgame, I usually aimed at high resource regen and lowered cost that allowed me to spam one skill (and ppl call them builds, very funny), or to stack -CD equipments till 0CD (and call them builds, too, funny as hell), those were kinda pointless and boring while D3 devs can have removed penalties in the very first place to devote to the true diversity.

There are still people who truely believe that D3 has better combats, if somebody here is offended and feel the need to argue, I won't reply LOL.

Agree with OP cooldowns would make the game far more diverse making it a bit more fun to play than just permanently holding down your main attack hotkey until everything is dead.

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NameIsDon wrote:

Diversity is an illusion when it is created by cooldowns.

When you choose to use one skill, not because you like the skill, nor because the skill is good, but because other better skills are in cooldowns, do you feel rewarded, or do you feel penalized?

If that was true dota wtf mode would have been a better game than standard dota. And it is not guess you are just wrong.. (wtf mode removed all cooldowns allowing you to run around spaming any skill you like all day)


Cooldowns are great for balance. They allow for both "op" skills to be added with a long cd, as well as weaker skills to spam while waiting for the cooldowns of the good stuff. The only problem right now with adding cooldowns is the lack of relevant skills to use in between.

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Grildrak wrote:

If that was true dota wtf mode would have been a better game than standard dota. And it is not guess you are just wrong.. (wtf mode removed all cooldowns allowing you to run around spaming any skill you like all day)

You don't simply remove all cooldowns and call it a balanced system without overhaul.

I agree if a skill is too powerful without a good reason such as large investiment in skill points or synergies, it should not be spammable. But in the case called D3, skills that are as tiny as leap and teleport can have a 8 seconds cooldown.

BTW, I never played MOBA games, except the very first dota in WC3.

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When you choose to use one skill, not because you like the skill, nor because the skill is good, but because other better skills are in cooldowns, do you feel rewarded, or do you feel penalized?

When you choose to wait on a skill because the timing isn't quite right yet and then you use it just when you need it you feel rewarded. D3 did combat way better than PoE did. I'd love to port parts of their combat into PoE but it won't ever happen. PoE is just overly repetitive and skill timing is completely missing from it.

I mean PoE generally is spam AOE skill, if large pack maybe drop totem and apply curse and then spam AOE skill. Spam single target skill to mop up. There is no finesse at all to it.

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EnderCN wrote:

When you choose to wait on a skill because the timing isn't quite right yet and then you use it just when you need it you feel rewarded. D3 did combat way better than PoE did. I'd love to port parts of their combat into PoE but it won't ever happen. PoE is just overly repetitive and skill timing is completely missing from it.

I mean PoE generally is spam AOE skill, if large pack maybe drop totem and apply curse and then spam AOE skill. Spam single target skill to mop up. There is no finesse at all to it.

Timing does exist, when you use potions to buff or decurse, and skills like Immortal Calls and Leap Slam, or release everything while a boss enemy is vulnerable.

I don't quite understand it, perhaps people think the only timings are scripted timings? You need to tie their hands so they can feel it?

In D3, (I typed a long wall here but forget it), in short, there weren't many timing actions in the endgame, I spam shits to face tank everything.

There are many builds in PoE that require more than one skill, and some that require only one. If you enjoy playing multiple skill builds do so. If you want to mash the same button over and over, you can do that too. Forcing people to play the way you want them to is really bad form.

With the newly buffed Trap support gem you can actually make secondary damage dealing skills that aren't limited to either fire trap, bear trap or discharge. I'm very happy about this.

However, would sure be nice to have more skills that already are made to be less spammed and more positioned. Example being that there's no current better fire skill trap combination thats better than good old fire trap, cause all the current fire spells are spam based other than fire trap or discharge.

Would also be really nice to have a few more supports, such as a melee trap gem, a cooldown-inducing one that didn't have multiple uses stored but was more powerful, or just a good old "mana dumper" with a crazy mana multiplier and crazy damage multiplier.

The fact that all the usefull and "cool" skills in D3 had a cooldown, turned me away from it. If you don't wanna use the same skill over and over, than don't. But let the people do so, who want to.

Don't we already have quite a few skills with cooldowns (or that effectively have them)? Traps, mines, cold snap, flicker strike, enduring cry, and discharge come to mind.

Heck, if you want you can give any of your skills a cooldown by turning them into traps or mines.