Making the PoE Leveling Process Even Better: Tier System for Orbs

"

pneuma wrote:

"

TeeloBrown wrote:

In the normal leveling process for PoE, the optimal strategy for dropped orbs is to hoard them until later levels.

This assumption is incorrect, and it blows away the rest of the post.

Using an alch orb (or a handful of chromatics, or a fusing or two, or some alterations) to get better gear that lets you kill more stuff faster and survive longer will net positive on returns throughout the game.

QFT. Besides, you will find more orbs. Hoarding the sucks all the life and fun out of mid-level play.

I already use orbs early and often. Why?

Well the better gear I have now, the faster I get to end-game and the more fun I have along the way. I don't need or want the game to force some kind of "orb-tiers" to encourage me to do something I already do.

Also, a brilliant part of PoE's currency system is this: You can find the rarest orbs in the game on a lvl 1 character. In a game with such a strong emphasis on re-playability through a complex passive tree, you want players to not feel like they are wasting their time by re-rolling as a low level character.

You want them to know that they can still find orbs that are valuable even at low level so they will enjoy the proccess of making new characters and have something that will help all their characters, not just the ones of a specific level range.

"

Elynole wrote:

There comes a point in development where too much complication is just that, too much. This would be more of a frustration than it would be a significant fun addition to the game.

If GGG was afraid of making the PoE too complicated, they've got other problems to worry about besides some orbs with level caps on them. As for being frustrating, in what way?

"

faerwin2 wrote:

You would simply force shitty currency for new players. Those currencies would end up being worthless but still extremely rare.

Overall, bad idea.

What's shitty about the chance of improving early level gear? I don't see how a low tier currency dropping would be a negative so long as players recognized their value and adjusted accordingly (IE, used them more liberally).

"

yurf0 wrote:

Good on paper. But it would be painful to live out. New players would be totally separate from the economy, and have no real way to earn a profit until higher levels.

You wouldn't be separated from the economy - the items you'd need while leveling would be lowbie orbs/gear, and there would be other lowbies out there who need the same thing from you. That's a market. Once open beta hits and more people start playing, there will be a lot of people leveling the same content as you that you can trade with.

"

devmoon wrote:

Ofcourse its gonna be hard to justify rolling alchs and chaos orbs on low level equipment but thats whats making this game interesting MAKING HARD CHOICES I dont understand why everyone wants the game to make all decisions for you.

Learning to accept loosing currency orbs is the problem here and I think people need to stop hoarding everything.

It's not about eliminating choices, it's about aligning the optimal way to play with all the interesting parts of the game that you want players to experience. Imagine a game where all the main paths lead you straight into all the most boring parts, and you could beat the game with out ever having to fight a boss. Sure there would be players who went out and explored the boss areas regardless, but if you took the time to make all these awesome bosses why not incentivize players to fight them?

Besides, there would probably be MORE choices with a tiered system, not less. Currently any time an Exalted Orb drops while you're leveling, what's the decision? Hoard it. Divine Orb? Hoard it. Chaos Orb? Hoard it. When a Tier 2 Exalted Orb drops and you're level 20, you would have choices to make; do I use it on x item, y item, or wait for item z etc? The exciting part is the best decision actually involves using it.

"

Progammer wrote:

This goes against the philosophy of the currency drop. Anyone have a shot at getting a currency item with high value. Whether you're lvl 1 or 80. If the philosophy is not preserved, nobody will want to lvl a new character the second time since their time spend holds no value. And we come to the problem of D3 again.

I don't buy that peoples decision to re-roll is based around the wealth they'll attain by doing so. They re-roll because leveling in Path of Exile is pretty awesome and because they really want to try a whirling blades spamming shadow build. And if this really did become a problem then like I suggested in the OP they could implement a huge reward of top-tier Orbs once you beat Merciless.

"

pneuma wrote:

"

TeeloBrown wrote:

In the normal leveling process for PoE, the optimal strategy for dropped orbs is to hoard them until later levels.

This assumption is incorrect, and it blows away the rest of the post.

Using an alch orb (or a handful of chromatics, or a fusing or two, or some alterations) to get better gear that lets you kill more stuff faster and survive longer will net positive on returns throughout the game.

You're implying you don't hoard, and then list a handful of orbs that you might use out of the 50-100 you accumulate over the course of leveling. Out of all the Orbs that you attained up to say, level 55, what percentage of them did you use to get to that point?

To everyone who says they already don't hoard, I pose the same question: Up to level 55, out of all the Orbs you attained getting to the point, what percentage of them did you use to get there? I'm genuinely curious. For me over the course of 3 characters, I'd guess it was somewhere between 10 and 20 percent. Most of my friends are newer to this game, but they have all intuitively decided to hoard most of their orbs as well, they quickly decided it was the best strategy in most cases. I would guess that this conclusion is made by the majority of players as they level, but I could be wrong?

"

TeeloBrown wrote:

You're implying you don't hoard, and then list a handful of orbs that you might use out of the 50-100 you accumulate over the course of leveling. Out of all the Orbs that you attained up to say, level 55, what percentage of them do you used to get to that point?

I mentioned the most commonly used orbs in the game and the bulk of most people's wealth. The only orbs I think I'd specifically hoard are divine, exalt, and mirror (of which the average character will find less than one by the time they hit maps). The rest are all 100% viable (and good) to use throughout the game.

A rough estimate of the orbs I use while leveling so you have one other data point:
- scraps, whetstones, baubles, transmutes, alchemy, chromatics, and augmentations are always in surplus. chisels not used since no maps by 55 usually.
- jewelers I hardly ever use (since I pick up the good links and magicify them, not the other way around). fusings occasionally used (mostly for uniques).
- chances I use on every base item with a good unique version.
- >100% of the alterations I find (pull from stash)
- 10% or less of the chaos/regal I find (very much easier to find another white base item).
- 0% of divine/exalt/mirror (well, 0% of 0, that is).
- 0% of the regrets I pick up (just sell them to people who can't plan as well).
- ~50% of the scours I find.
- Would be more than happy to use gcps if I had a main skill with 15+ qual on it. Often just pass qual gems back for use at first opportunity.

That should be all of them.

This is starting to sound a lot like the anti-magic find arugments:

"I have decided the only choice is to hoard stuff. There is no choice. I want the game to force me to try choosing another option."

YOU have decided that all your orbs should just be hoarded for end-game. But some players, like me, who have spent over 300 hours on the game understand that there are many reasons to use orbs on low-mid level characters. Lower level characters need upgrades more often. Having upgrades sooner means you level faster. Once I use an orb to create a great low level item, I'ts not just useful for that character, I can also save it in the stash for other characters.

Alchemy and Chaos are not even that rare. If I use 10 alchs and 5 chaos before level 30, I'm confident that I'll find another 10 alchs and 5 chaos by the time I'm level 60. And if I don't, I'll just trade some gems or some high-level gear for the orbs I need.

"

TeeloBrown wrote:

What's shitty about the chance of improving early level gear?

Nothing, that's why the orbs can already be used on low level gear. That's also why a lot of us DO use them on low level gear.

"

TeeloBrown wrote:

You wouldn't be separated from the economy

But that's exactly what you are suggesting: seperate each part of the orb economy to a specific level range. That's bad for trade and even with an increase in the playerbase, you would still be restricted to your "slice" of the economy.

"

TeeloBrown wrote:

Besides, there would probably be MORE choices with a tiered system, not less.

How would it create more choices? Let's say I find a lvl 10 GCP. Once I'm level 40 I cannot choose to use that GCP on my skill gem. In the current system I CAN choose to use it at any level I want.

The currency system as it is right now is almost perfect. Trying to impose the restriction you are suggesting is bad for the game. You need to understand that PoE is not just about end-game, and orbs are not just for level 60 characters.

I know you are really convinced that your idea is good for the game, but I'm really convinced that it isn't, sorry. :\

Pneuma,

Thanks for that. My overall game plan is similar (except I hoard my scourings as well), but I consider myself a hoarder. The reasons why you use or don't use certain orbs are certainly valid and it's good planning under the current circumstances, but surely you can see how when the circumstances change there is room to be more liberal? Have you ever played in one of the race events? Under those circumstances, you get a regal orb and you jump for joy and use it on your level 16 magic dagger that already has attack speed and a high phys damage roll. A Chaos Orb comes along and you might wait for an appropriately leveled rare armor that got a poor roll, and then you re-roll it. My entire argument is based around the idea that the ball-to-the-walls style of play that is incentivized in race events is the way Path of Exile is at it's most enjoyable.

"

TeeloBrown wrote:

My entire argument is based around the idea that the ball-to-the-walls style of play that is incentivized in race events is the way Path of Exile is at it's most enjoyable.

Then why aren't you already using your orbs on low-mid level items??

Axebane,

First, I see no reason why GCP should be tiered :P. Gems are forever!


I understand the time=money argument, but I'm very surprised to hear you've used 10 alchs and 5 chaos before level 30. Considering you can clear those levels in ~3-4 hours just with the gear you find on the floor, I think it would be very hard to argue using that many orbs that early on was the best way to use them.

I suppose what your asking in your last post is if I think it's more fun why not just use the orbs for the hell of it. I guess the answer is that by knowing I wasted all those orbs on an item I plan on using for 20 minutes when they could have been rolled on a high level item that I might use for days - the pain I'd feel from doing that knowingly would overshadow any joy. lol :P I don't think I'm alone in that, either.

"

TeeloBrown wrote:

Pneuma,

Thanks for that. My overall game plan is similar (except I hoard my scourings as well), but I consider myself a hoarder. The reasons why you use or don't use certain orbs are certainly valid and it's good planning under the current circumstances, but surely you can see how when the circumstances change there is room to be more liberal? Have you ever played in one of the race events? Under those circumstances, you get a regal orb and you jump for joy and use it on your level 16 magic dagger that already has attack speed and a high phys damage roll. A Chaos Orb comes along and you might wait for an appropriately leveled rare armor that got a poor roll, and then you re-roll it. My entire argument is based around the idea that the ball-to-the-walls style of play that is incentivized in race events is the way Path of Exile is at it's most enjoyable.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing balls-to-the-walls at all times other than your own personal notion that somehow it's optimal to hoard. Optimal is not always equivalent with fun.

I use alchemy orbs as I want, and I still have 10 or 15 at lvl 60. Orbs of Chance are fun shot at a unique, and it's hard to burn all your transmutations/augmentatinos/alterations anyway. I tried regals and divines becasue they dropped and it was more fun to spend than hoard. I get chromatics and armorers scrap faster than I can spend them. I ran out of fusings around lvl 45. I trade unwanted alteration shards to get them occasionally and work on a chest piece I'd like to 4L. Sure I could have hoarded my fusings but I wouodn't have had a 4L spirit shield with +1 to fire gems in Ruthless that was mighty handy. It was worth it. There will be more orbs.