so the only thing that was nurfed was the ability to move your zombies to where you are? I was thinking about making a witch and summoning monsters but is this still a good build to go with? And what if there aren't any corpse around... do you not have your main damage then? I am a new player so I do not understand a lot of things right now.
oh this build is still perfectly fine, just not as smooth as it was since 1.0.6.
dps is a bit less due to the flesh offering nerf, but still way better than on 1.0. you can't teleport your minions anymore with smoke mine and by that atziri seems impossible to beat, but over all it isn't as bad as some people may suggest.
there is still desecrate, that places corpses we can summon from and the offerings still offer a very high utility. so no worries young summoner, we're still doing quite fine :)
PS: seriously, i don't understand all the whining about the patch in some other threads. sure there is a bit less convenience now, but did everyone forget the dark days without desecrate, the offerings, the minion path finding being even more horrible than now that fast?
Last edited by Monti_Jones on Apr 9, 2014, 6:38:37 PM
so the only thing that was nurfed was the ability to move your zombies to where you are? I was thinking about making a witch and summoning monsters but is this still a good build to go with? And what if there aren't any corpse around... do you not have your main damage then? I am a new player so I do not understand a lot of things right now.
This little gem takes care of that bolded part:
Bundles of zombie (and spectre, if you're in the right area) bodies for you there. Overall, the build is still very viable and very strong. Also, if you are speccing right, you won't really have any substantial DPS by end game, it will all come from your minions. I know they buffed arc, but again, you will not be specced for it to be your main DPS if you lose your army of minions.
Last edited by GoatEatingToilet on Apr 9, 2014, 5:59:27 PM
PS: seriously, i don't understand all the whining about the patch in some other threads. sure there is a bit less convenience now, but did everyone forget the dark days without desecrate, the offerings, the minion path finding being even more horrible than now that fast?
Personally, my whining comes from that fact that we keep seeing nerf after nerf to sumoner-builds. The last couple of patches have almost all had some sort of summoner-nerf in them and it is just frustrating to see it again and again. I still love my summoners, I just dread the next patch more and more it seems.
People would do less whining had they not introduced smoke mine at all. Its the case of "Once had, now taken away". People got a taste of the good life and now its back to the shitty life. At least that is why am whining lol =P. The general toxic atmosphere of the poe forums atm isn't helping much either.
I agree with Goat, I Love the summoner but I would like the quality of life back.
Personally, my whining comes from that fact that we keep seeing nerf after nerf to sumoner-builds. The last couple of patches have almost all had some sort of summoner-nerf in them and it is just frustrating to see it again and again. I still love my summoners, I just dread the next patch more and more it seems.
don't think of it as a nerf, but as an adjustment.
let's be honest: 1.06 was a huge buff for summoners. instant 40%-50% attack speed up, instant block increase, summoning anywhere anytime, regen, life leech, not to mention a few summoning uniques snapshotters can abuse even more. as it turns out it was a bit to much and while i can see why one wouldn't want any of these things gone, GGG just thought it needed some further tinkering. the last weeks where just to good to be true in hindsight and GGG now thinks never should have been that good.
and may i ask: which of the nerfs hit this build hard? imba BMs not melting everything? desecrate not giving instant lvl100 specters or a million corpses at a time?
nothing really weakened this build drastically. everything is just a bit more "normal" but still way way better than before 1.06.
as long as they don't take away desecrate or the offerings as a whole i can live with the nerfs :)
People would do less whining had they not introduced smoke mine at all. Its the case of "Once had, now taken away". People got a taste of the good life and now its back to the shitty life. At least that is why am whining lol =P. The general toxic atmosphere of the poe forums atm isn't helping much either.
i must say the smoke mine thing is bullshit. they just took away a huge utility spell for summoners and made the already weak targeting and disengaging unjustifiably harder. i can't see any reasoning behind this other than preventing people from cheesing atziri under evangelists bubbles but at what cost?
Last edited by Monti_Jones on Apr 10, 2014, 3:30:51 AM
let's be honest: 1.1 was a huge buff for summoners. instant 40%-50% attack speed up, instant block increase, summoning anywhere anytime, regen, life leech, not to mention a few summoning uniques snapshotters can abuse even more. as it turns out it was a bit to much and while i can see why one wouldn't want any of these things gone, GGG just thought it needed some further tinkering. the last weeks where just to good to be true in hindsight and GGG now thinks never should have been that good.
and may i ask: which of the nerfs hit this build hard? imba BMs not melting everything? desecrate not giving instant lvl100 specters or a million corpses at a time?
nothing really weakened this build drastically. everything is just a bit more "normal" but still way way better than before 1.06.
Saying adjustment instead of nerf does not change anything, the outcome of weakening the build in some way is still the same. At any rate, I will use adjustment for this rant.
Again, my whining does not stem from the changes breaking the summoner builds, because they have not. By the same standards, though, they have made the builds far less fun overall. I am simply tired of seeing adjustment after adjustment that takes away from the summoner instead of adding to it, or an adjustment that takes something away but fails to introduce something slightly different in its place as well (and, yes, I am mainly speaking about smoke mine with this one).
I think you mean 1.0.6 was a huge buff to summoners (as you mention towards the end of the quote), as that was the patch that introduced many minion buffs, new skill gems and passive nodes. The next patch (1.0.6b) adjusted desecrate to where you had to level it up to get better lvl corpses (nothing to whine about there. a fair balance change... except that it limited corpses to maxing out at lvl 64, I believe. This was corrected in 1.1 where you could raise lvl 100 corpses (which we cannot currently do) at lvl 20 of the gem.)
BMs were also adjusted in 1.1.0... if, in this case, you consider "adjusting" to make the spectre completely useless. This was further adjusted in 1.1.0b, but they were still considered to be useless after even that.
1.1.2 saw the adjustment of smoke mine to not work with minions, flesh offering to slightly drop in power and Undying Evangelists to have a shorter and less-used shield (they also appear less in their packs, but this and the shield reduction helped many ranged builds).
I'm totally fine with BMs no longer melting everything, but now they hardly damage anything unless you have 8-10 seconds to waste on every single pack of mobs. Furthermore, their horribly gimped damage paired with their suicidal melee tendencies also makes them a complete waste of a spectre spot now because they will likely die before anything their AoE is affecting now.
I am thankful that the Evangelist adjustment was not nearly as severe and they are still usable.
Anyway, I don't want to derail Rathik's thread anymore than I already have, but I did want to reply.
Last edited by GoatEatingToilet on Apr 9, 2014, 7:59:15 PM
let's be honest: 1.1 was a huge buff for summoners. instant 40%-50% attack speed up, instant block increase, summoning anywhere anytime, regen, life leech, not to mention a few summoning uniques snapshotters can abuse even more. as it turns out it was a bit to much and while i can see why one wouldn't want any of these things gone, GGG just thought it needed some further tinkering. the last weeks where just to good to be true in hindsight and GGG now thinks never should have been that good.
and may i ask: which of the nerfs hit this build hard? imba BMs not melting everything? desecrate not giving instant lvl100 specters or a million corpses at a time?
nothing really weakened this build drastically. everything is just a bit more "normal" but still way way better than before 1.06.
Saying adjustment instead of nerf does not change anything, the outcome of weakening the build in some way is still the same. At any rate, I will use adjustment for this rant.
Again, my whining does not stem from the changes breaking the summoner builds, because they have not. By the same standards, though, they have made the builds far less fun overall. I am simply tired of seeing adjustment after adjustment that takes away from the summoner instead of adding to it, or an adjustment that takes something away but fails to introduce something slightly different in its place as well (and, yes, I am mainly speaking about smoke mine with this one).
I think you mean 1.0.6 was a huge buff to summoners (as you mention towards the end of the quote), as that was the patch that introduced many minion buffs, new skill gems and passive nodes. The next patch (1.0.6b) adjusted desecrate to where you had to level it up to get better lvl corpses (nothing to whine about there. a fair balance change... except that it limited corpses to maxing out at lvl 64, I believe. This was corrected in 1.1 where you could raise lvl 100 corpses (which we cannot currently do) at lvl 20 of the gem.)
BMs were also adjusted in 1.1.0... if, in this case, you consider "adjusting" to make the spectre completely useless. This was further adjusted in 1.1.0b, but they were still considered to be useless after even that.
1.1.2 saw the adjustment of smoke mine to not work with minions, flesh offering to slightly drop in power and Undying Evangelists to have a shorter and less-used shield (they also appear less in their packs, but this and the shield reduction helped many ranged builds).
I'm totally fine with BMs no longer melting everything, but now they hardly damage anything unless you have 8-10 seconds to waste on every single pack of mobs. Furthermore, their horribly gimped damage paired with their suicidal melee tendencies also makes them a complete waste of a spectre spot now because they will likely die before anything their AoE is affecting now.
I am thankful that the Evangelist adjustment was not nearly as severe and they are still usable.
Anyway, I don't want to derail Rathik's thread anymore than I already have, but I did want to reply.
"
There's a currently planned upcoming skill that performs a similar function (untrapping minions), but in a much more balanced way.
It's likely to be in the next content patch, 1.1.3.
Gains:
- flesh/bone offering
- buffed desecrate
- Mon'tregul's Grasp, skull head
- corrupted minion damage modes on helm/amulet
- +1 gem level on chest (corrupted modes)
- corrupted empower/zombie/RZ gems (+1 level or extra quality)
- auras that can give up to 10% max res
- 2x +1 max res. corrupted mods and 3 keystones
- cloak of defiance/MOM
- Solaris Lorica (underrated at the moment)
- disclosed minion stats
- vaal summon skeletons/spark
- new minions and boosted zombies
- buffed arc/arctic breath/flame spells
Soon a new minion teleport gem similar to Smoke mine.
We lost:
- burning miscreations
- degen bears
- CoD (broken)
- easy 24/7 bubble (maybe it's still possible by mixing reduced/normal/increased duration and/or faster casting?)
We have more mainstream balanced spectre choice (sentinel, evangelist, titty b***/plumed chimeras?) compared to only one choice in beta Sentinels (later on BM).
I'm satisfied :) my life is so much easier now compared to beta.
As usual it will take a while for the player base to adapt but the truth is we got a huge buff.
Saying adjustment instead of nerf does not change anything, the outcome of weakening the build in some way is still the same. At any rate, I will use adjustment for this rant.
Again, my whining does not stem from the changes breaking the summoner builds, because they have not. By the same standards, though, they have made the builds far less fun overall. I am simply tired of seeing adjustment after adjustment that takes away from the summoner instead of adding to it, or an adjustment that takes something away but fails to introduce something slightly different in its place as well (and, yes, I am mainly speaking about smoke mine with this one).
I think you mean 1.0.6 was a huge buff to summoners (as you mention towards the end of the quote), as that was the patch that introduced many minion buffs, new skill gems and passive nodes. The next patch (1.0.6b) adjusted desecrate to where you had to level it up to get better lvl corpses (nothing to whine about there. a fair balance change... except that it limited corpses to maxing out at lvl 64, I believe. This was corrected in 1.1 where you could raise lvl 100 corpses (which we cannot currently do) at lvl 20 of the gem.)
BMs were also adjusted in 1.1.0... if, in this case, you consider "adjusting" to make the spectre completely useless. This was further adjusted in 1.1.0b, but they were still considered to be useless after even that.
1.1.2 saw the adjustment of smoke mine to not work with minions, flesh offering to slightly drop in power and Undying Evangelists to have a shorter and less-used shield (they also appear less in their packs, but this and the shield reduction helped many ranged builds).
I'm totally fine with BMs no longer melting everything, but now they hardly damage anything unless you have 8-10 seconds to waste on every single pack of mobs. Furthermore, their horribly gimped damage paired with their suicidal melee tendencies also makes them a complete waste of a spectre spot now because they will likely die before anything their AoE is affecting now.
I am thankful that the Evangelist adjustment was not nearly as severe and they are still usable.
Anyway, I don't want to derail Rathik's thread anymore than I already have, but I did want to reply.
of course you're completely right, it was 1.06 that buffed summoners, don't know why i had 1.1 in mind...
to keep this from derailing the thread, i want to specifically look at what the nerfs you mentioned did to this build.
as you well know, this build isn't spectre dependent so do i care about desecrate not giving me lvl100 corpses? no, not really... i could use the gem at lvl1 and zombies would still be the same...
do i care about op BMs not being op anymore? no, not really... zombies are still doing good damage... i just take whatever spectre i can get... sure they may overdid it with the nerf, but if snapshotted BMs just were smelters and summoners could run through maps without even looking at packs or rares and they had to be fast to even catch a glimpse of them if they wanted to. there was no skill needed for this play style at all, just having the right gear/gems and know how to snapshot.
do i care about evangelists not having 24/7 bubble? maybe... it was nice to be invulnerable... but honestly: it made things too easy. inside the bubble all those pesky spells and projectiles piercing through your front line meant nothing to you. you will have to adjust your play style accordingly and dodge most of them if you are feeling to squishy but the build is affected in no way what so ever. this may take away a chunk of convenience but this convenience was quite cheesy to be honest. again, there wasn't much skill needed by the players themselves.
do i care about the flesh offering nerf? maybe... but honestly: over 40% faster attacks at lvl1 iirc, at least times 10 if you sum up the minions (and that's without any uniques) is quite huge. 30% at lvl1 is still fine i guess and at least minions don't look like they are on speed anymore.
do i care about smoke mine? honestly i didn't know about this feature until i saw some atziri solo kill vods by summoners and by the time i was getting used to the mine it was gone. so personally no, but you are totally right, there was no balancing in mind with this one. it's a huge utility gem gone for summoners that didn't make anyone stronger the only nerf involved here was a downgrade in comfort and i share your fear of just losing convenience over and over when it comes to "patches" like that.
you mention summoner builds making less fun overall. but was it really fun to melt everything in your way because you had found the right setup? was it really fun to be invulnerable inside the bubble?
personally i don't want to be given this easy way, i want to earn it. i have loads of fun being kind of squishy and weak damage wise myself while supporting my army from the backline. losing a summon here or there, dodging spells or charging enemies, buffing, cursing, trying to get my zombies to the right target add much more to my summoner experience than any smelter or invulnerability could ever do.
PS: thank you Galax for confirming my point of view :)
Last edited by Monti_Jones on Apr 10, 2014, 5:08:42 AM
Saying adjustment instead of nerf does not change anything, the outcome of weakening the build in some way is still the same. At any rate, I will use adjustment for this rant.
Again, my whining does not stem from the changes breaking the summoner builds, because they have not. By the same standards, though, they have made the builds far less fun overall. I am simply tired of seeing adjustment after adjustment that takes away from the summoner instead of adding to it, or an adjustment that takes something away but fails to introduce something slightly different in its place as well (and, yes, I am mainly speaking about smoke mine with this one).
I think you mean 1.0.6 was a huge buff to summoners (as you mention towards the end of the quote), as that was the patch that introduced many minion buffs, new skill gems and passive nodes. The next patch (1.0.6b) adjusted desecrate to where you had to level it up to get better lvl corpses (nothing to whine about there. a fair balance change... except that it limited corpses to maxing out at lvl 64, I believe. This was corrected in 1.1 where you could raise lvl 100 corpses (which we cannot currently do) at lvl 20 of the gem.)
BMs were also adjusted in 1.1.0... if, in this case, you consider "adjusting" to make the spectre completely useless. This was further adjusted in 1.1.0b, but they were still considered to be useless after even that.
1.1.2 saw the adjustment of smoke mine to not work with minions, flesh offering to slightly drop in power and Undying Evangelists to have a shorter and less-used shield (they also appear less in their packs, but this and the shield reduction helped many ranged builds).
I'm totally fine with BMs no longer melting everything, but now they hardly damage anything unless you have 8-10 seconds to waste on every single pack of mobs. Furthermore, their horribly gimped damage paired with their suicidal melee tendencies also makes them a complete waste of a spectre spot now because they will likely die before anything their AoE is affecting now.
I am thankful that the Evangelist adjustment was not nearly as severe and they are still usable.
Anyway, I don't want to derail Rathik's thread anymore than I already have, but I did want to reply.
of course you're completely right, it was 1.06 that buffed summoners, don't know why i had 1.1 in mind...
to keep this from derailing the thread, i want to specifically look at what the nerfs you mentioned did to this build.
as you well know, this build isn't spectre dependent so do i care about desecrate not giving me lvl100 corpses? no, not really... i could use the gem at lvl1 and zombies would still be the same...
do i care about op BMs not being op anymore? no, not really... zombies are still doing good damage... i just take whatever spectre i can get... sure they may overdid it with the nerf, but if snapshotted BMs just were smelters and summoners could run through maps without even looking at packs or rares and they had to be fast to even catch a glimpse of them if they wanted to. there was no skill needed for this play style at all, just having the right gear/gems and know how to snapshot.
do i care about evangelists not having 24/7 bubble? maybe... it was nice to be invulnerable... but honestly: it made things too easy. inside the bubble all those pesky spells and projectiles piercing through your front line meant nothing to you. you will have to adjust your play style accordingly and dodge most of them if you are feeling to squishy but the build is affected in no way what so ever. this may take away a chunk of convenience but this convenience was quite cheesy to be honest. again, there wasn't much skill needed by the players themselves.
do i care about the flesh offering nerf? maybe... but honestly: over 40% faster attacks at lvl1 iirc, at least times 10 if you sum up the minions (and that's without any uniques) is quite huge. 30% at lvl1 is still fine i guess and at least minions don't look like they are on speed anymore.
do i care about smoke mine? honestly i didn't know about this feature until i saw some atziri solo kill vods by summoners and by the time i was getting used to the mine it was gone. so personally no, but you are totally right, there was no balancing in mind with this one. it's a huge utility gem gone for summoners that didn't make anyone stronger the only nerf involved here was a downgrade in comfort and i share your fear of just losing convenience over and over when it comes to "patches" like that.
you mention summoner builds making less fun overall. but was it really fun to melt everything in your way because you had found the right setup? was it really fun to be invulnerable inside the bubble?
personally i don't want to be given this easy way, i want to earn it. i have loads of fun being kind of squishy and weak damage wise myself while supporting my army from the backline. losing a summon here or there, dodging spells or charging enemies, buffing, cursing, trying to get my zombies to the right target add much more to my summoner experience than any smelter or invulnerability could ever do.
PS: thank you Galax for confirming my point of view :)
Bundles of zombie (and spectre, if you're in the right area) bodies for you there. Overall, the build is still very viable and very strong. Also, if you are speccing right, you won't really have any substantial DPS by end game, it will all come from your minions. I know they buffed arc, but again, you will not be specced for it to be your main DPS if you lose your army of minions.
speccing? what does this mean.
What have any substantial dps by end game? Does this mean this build is not good for late game or are you saying if your minions are dead you have no damage?
But this is still a fun, strong build and is good build right.
This doesn't do anything with a bubble? I heard a streamer talking about if you relied on the bubble then your build is screwed.
