Remove IR add new keystone, ideas welcome

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Xendran wrote:

I think you're misunderstanding. There is no dodging with mine. You can never mitigate 100% damage with evasion with my IR.

Attack 1: If evade, take 50% Damage, otherwise take 100% Damage
Attack 2: If attack 1 was evade, take 50% damage, otherwise reroll evade. If evade, take 50% damage otherwise take 100% damage.
Attack 3: If attack 2 was evade, take 50% damage, otherwise reroll evade. If evade, take 50% damage otherwise take 100% damage

etc.

Mine is the player taking 50% 50% 50% 50% damage. Yours has them taking 0% 50% 0% 50%.
Mine also removes entropy, because things get fucked up when counting two hits as two different evades, while halving their effect. Entropy staying in on it would actually nerf it into the ground.

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because after 50% EV every other hit will be an evade so one of the following will happen.

An example of how entropy would actually nerf this really hard: You'd get 50% 50% in a row, so your next hit would be a guaranteed 100% and then two more 50% 50%.

50 50 100 50 50 100
vs
0 100 0 100 0 100

Then your system does nothing to prevent one shots (which are why people don't play evade in the first place).

I'm thinking the best compromise is having Dex grant % Base EV as armour.

What needs to happen with evasion is a general boost to the life nodes and life in that area as well as introducing options that can restore chunks of life, like a heal on cooldown and a higher tier of flasks, since the current tier of flasks date back to CB.

Evasion should work by avoiding damage, than taking damage and either go out of combat or quickly refill that loss of life. Currently the game does not provide this for evasion as well as that mostly the life pool is too low, that did however get boosted last patch.

The armour side of things should have better mitigation and be build around mitigation. Elemental adaptation and reduction physical damage, reduction of crit multiplier damage stuff like that should be abundant. With some crits obviously bypassing the evasion system and underlying life pool something similar should also be done for evasion.

Evasive characters should die from too many hits and mitigation should die from to large hits. This might sound counter intuitive, but as player you die by failing from playing the play style designated to you and what you choice.

If you die from 1 large hit as an evasion character the game is cheap and it is a stupid design, unless this is some pre-designed hit/ animation sequence. Think vaal slam, but than one you can properly evade by moving around.

The way I see a mitigation build fail is when too much damage and too high damage comes in and there is not enough regen to keep up. However design of armour makes big hits mostly bypass and there is hardly any monster or game mechanic in this game that can provide such death scenerio's.

The whole IR debacle should mostly be solved by my proposed formula changes to calculating the armour value, which gets bypassed permanently thus I will repost it once more:

Total Armour =

[ [ ARMOUR{500*(1+0.52+0.6+0.3+0.4)} +

ER{(530+Grace*IF)*(1+0.6+0.3+0.4)} ] ] *

(Determination*IF)

Maybe, it would be good idea to change Determination to work as Grace - to give flat armor.

The problem with Determination is, that it gives not much, if you don't already enough armor on gear. That is one of reasons, why Grace+IR is so important for my armor based characters.

"

Autocthon wrote:

Then your system does nothing to prevent one shots (which are why people don't play evade in the first place).

There was a mod missing, i've added it in now.
The mod was too complicated for the end user, so i actually replaced it with a better one.

Taking out the super complex mod (which was related to evasion rating being added to your total as a percentage of your current based on your evasion rating and number of miti- yeah you get the idea. too much) and replacing it with this seems to work decently.

Iron Reflexes
Evading an attack grants 50% damage mitigation for two attacks rather than 100% damage avoidance for one attack.
All armour is removed.
Dexterity bonus no longer applies to evasion.
50% of the Damage mitigation from evasion will stack multiplicatively.
Entropy no longer applies to evade.


This means that with consequtive evades you'll be taking 25% instead of 0% like a regular evade, or 50% like a first mitigation, but the important part comes when you fail an evade: Your previous evade is still in effect, meaning you're gonna get hit for a 50% before you ever get hit for a 100%. This means you can always predict when a oneshot is going to come by watching how much damage you take.

You'll take more damage overall, but less damage at once. This is another reason entropy should be removed, entropy would make it too predictable as to when you're going to lose an evade, and it makes it so that past certain evade numbers you never fail two evades in a row, meaning you never see that 100% damage.



Example:

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Ozgwald wrote:

What needs to happen with evasion is a general boost to the life nodes and life in that area as well as introducing options that can restore chunks of life, like a heal on cooldown and a higher tier of flasks, since the current tier of flasks date back to CB.

Evasion should work by avoiding damage, than taking damage and either go out of combat or quickly refill that loss of life. Currently the game does not provide this for evasion as well as that mostly the life pool is too low, that did however get boosted last patch.

This is a myth. It is a lie. It is misinformation propagated by players who have never bothered to even consider evasion as halfway to viable, let alone take the time to verify their beliefs.

Splitting the tree down the middle and getting only life nodes,

Right Side has +308% Life and 605 max life at level 77 with 95 points spent.
Left side has +284% Life and 805 Max life at level 79 with 97 points spend.


This means that before equipment (which right side is scaling better with) they have respectively 2456 and 3091 health, favoring the left side by about 25%. Every piece of gear is then going to close this gap by 20% of the life on the gear, by 1000 bonus life it becomes 6548 and 6931 respectively. At that point there's a less than 10% gap in life total.

And that was splitting right down the middle, if the EV character branches into the STR side the gap is only going to narrow as they gain Str and other HP nodes. And the Dex character with that HP multiplier also managed a 150% EV multiplier (the STR chatracter has no AR multiplier in those points).

So please, tell us all again how hurting for life dex is, even though they have more efficient life clusters and a higher available multiplier. I even left the 24% out form the right half of the witch start.

"

The armour side of things should have better mitigation and be build around mitigation. Elemental adaptation and reduction physical damage, reduction of crit multiplier damage stuff like that should be abundant. With some crits obviously bypassing the evasion system and underlying life pool something similar should also be done for evasion.

Evasive characters should die from too many hits and mitigation should die from to large hits. This might sound counter intuitive, but as player you die by failing from playing the play style designated to you and what you choice.

If you die from 1 large hit as an evasion character the game is cheap and it is a stupid design, unless this is some pre-designed hit/ animation sequence. Think vaal slam, but than one you can properly evade by moving around.

The way I see a mitigation build fail is when too much damage and too high damage comes in and there is not enough regen to keep up. However design of armour makes big hits mostly bypass and there is hardly any monster or game mechanic in this game that can provide such death scenerio's.

The whole IR debacle should mostly be solved by my proposed formula changes to calculating the armour value, which gets bypassed permanently thus I will repost it once more:

Total Armour =

[ [ ARMOUR{500*(1+0.52+0.6+0.3+0.4)} +

ER{(530+Grace*IF)*(1+0.6+0.3+0.4)} ] ] *

(Determination*IF)

A half decent EV build doesn't die to one shots that wouldn't kill an armour character. They just have a more difficult gear barrier, making them seem less effective. It's not difficult to support EV in such a way as to reach 95%+ avoidance. at that point unless a hit kills your outright you're unlikely to ever die.

Edit @Xendran: Making EV more unreliable and more variable won't do anything to buff it. Like I said, easier to have IR turn the Dex bonus to evasion into a dex conversion of evasion to armour. That accomplishes what IR wants without requiring complex mechanics and without straight up nerfing it. You'll have a less effective DR in small fights and more in larger. While also having one shot mitigation

BAsically, for a half decent EV build you're recommendation is a straight nerf to the builds effectiveness once they take IR

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Edit @Xendran: Making EV more unreliable and more variable won't do anything to buff it.
BAsically, for a half decent EV build you're recommendation is a straight nerf to the builds effectiveness once they take IR

*facepalm*
No. If you can't see how this is MORE reliable, i don't know what else i can do for you. I even provided an example in a picture format which is simple to understand, and a text example explaining that you will ALWAYS see a 50% hit before a potential 100% hit meaning you will ALWAYS be able to predict when to disengage to avoid that hit if necessary.

You take more damage overall in exchange for taking less damage at one time, and being warned ahead of time when you're about to take a large hit.

To reengage an enemy that can OHKO you, simply cast a quick immortal call if you need to avoid being oneshot at the start. Then once you get your first evade, you can wail away until your evasion fails as long as you keep an eye on your hp, then you can disengage and reengage if you need to avoid a potential 100% hit.

"

Xendran wrote:

"

Edit @Xendran: Making EV more unreliable and more variable won't do anything to buff it.
BAsically, for a half decent EV build you're recommendation is a straight nerf to the builds effectiveness once they take IR

*facepalm*
No. If you can't see how this is MORE reliable, i don't know what else i can do for you. I even provided an example in a picture format which is simple to understand, and a text example explaining that you will ALWAYS see a 50% hit before a potential 100% hit meaning you will ALWAYS be able to predict when to disengage to avoid that hit if necessary.

You take more damage overall in exchange for taking less damage at one time, and being warned ahead of time when you're about to take a large hit.

To reengage an enemy that can OHKO you, simply cast a quick immortal call if you need to avoid being oneshot at the start. Then once you get your first evade, you can wail away until your evasion fails, then you can disengage and reengage if you need to avoid a potential 100% hit.

Actually if you propse to remove the Entropy systemn a 50% hit won't tell you if the next incoming hit will be striking you or be getting evaded. Thats the thing about removing the entropy system. So by removing the entropy system you're reducing reliability.

And for high evasion builds, would you rather be evading 95% of hits, or getting hit for 25% 95% of the time? Because 95% evade is an attainable number using Enfeeble and Blind (requiring 56% listed evasion). 90% is doable with blind alone. Since you want to remove entropy there will be no telling when you have two incoming hits in a row.

As I've explained I don't know how many times, the issue with taking hits has very little do do with how much damage reduction you have and much more to do with how much of a hit you can take at once. In general an EV build should be able to survive nearly all hits an AR build can with the exception of some very ludicrous damage spikes (Vaal slam).

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Actually if you propse to remove the Entropy systemn a 50% hit won't tell you if the next incoming hit will be striking you or be getting evaded. Thats the thing about removing the entropy system. So by removing the entropy system you're reducing reliability.

If you get hit for 50% the next hit will either be 50% or 100%. It's a risk management situation. The reliability is 100% if you always go for the non-risky option.
That's intentional, it gives the player a more active role in combat, like a good game should.
It also prevents you from having permanent damage mitigation.

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And for high evasion builds, would you rather be evading 95% of hits, or getting hit for 25% 95% of the time? Because 95% evade is an attainable number using Enfeeble and Blind (requiring 56% listed evasion). 90% is doable with blind alone. Since you want to remove entropy there will be no telling when you have two incoming hits in a row.

I would rather evade 95% of hits, so i wouldn't take that keystone if i was using both enfeeble and blind. Because that's the entire point. It's not mandatory for every evasion character to take it, and not every evasion character will benefit from it. Many do, however.

Just like how keystones were meant to be.
Would you rather regen 10% HP or 10% ES on a pure HP build?
Would you use EE with a tri elemental build?
Would you rather have 6k ES or 3K es and 20% dodge?
Exactly. That's the same kind of logic you're trying to use here.

Not every keystone is for every build and setup.

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As I've explained I don't know how many times, the issue with taking hits has very little do do with how much damage reduction you have and much more to do with how much of a hit you can take at once. In general an EV build should be able to survive nearly all hits an AR build can with the exception of some very ludicrous damage spikes (Vaal slam).

You never have to take more than 50% of a hit at once if you play safe. If you play risky, that's a different situation. Also remember that this is damage mitigation, not physical mitigation. This applies to everything.

By the way, damage reduction IS how much of a hit you take at once, so i'm not sure if that was a typo or just a senior moment or what.
If you can only take 75% of a hit, and you reduce the hit to 50%, congrats. You survived.

I meant DR as a stat compared to how much damage you can take before the DR. There's an upper limit on incoming damage potential (around where damage from Vaal slam caps out) which means after a certain point DR becomes less of an issue.

Also I'm in the middle of setting up several experiments and slightly distracted.