Chaos vs Scour + Alch

I don't like the mods on this



If i wanted to change them, I have 2 options:

1. I right click on my chaos orb stack, then click on the vest and I'm done.

2. I right click my scouring stack, click my vest, right click my alch stack, click on my vest and I'm done.

That's twice the work.

Why on earth would someone pay the same to work more to achieve the same thing?

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alkara wrote:

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Reashu wrote:

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Atraps003 wrote:

Alch+Scour is worth more than a chaos. People are just retarded. If a chaos was twice as rare as a mirror would it be worth more than a mirror?

Long live the voice of reason!

I'm not horribly rich (or even remotely rich =X ), but I'm always willing to trade your Alch+Scour for my Chaos, if only to make Wraeclast a saner place.

I need to find people like you to rip off. :P

If two people think they're both ripping the other off, I'd call that win-win.

I think the real reason has more to do with botters and people who buy currency for RL money (most of the richest players). Since websites will sell 1 Alch + 1 Scour cheaper than 1 Chaos, the rich players who by-and-large run the economy value Chaos more. Don't bother looking for any rational underpinning here, because there isn't any. Just one of the reasons that the economy in PoE is so awful.

Am I the only one here who doesn't see dollar signs on all the orbs?

For the people saying value is not related to functionality, perhaps remember that a divine is rarer than an exalt? And chaos are more common than alchs because of the vendor recipe?

Why are people even playing this game if they don't use the orbs for anything except trading...... Seems like you'd be better off just playing Diablo 3 and saving time just using their Auction house!

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Luice wrote:

Am I the only one here who doesn't see dollar signs on all the orbs?

For the people saying value is not related to functionality, perhaps remember that a divine is rarer than an exalt? And chaos are more common than alchs because of the vendor recipe?

Why are people even playing this game if they don't use the orbs for anything except trading...... Seems like you'd be better off just playing Diablo 3 and saving time just using their Auction house!

Because of 2 reasons:

1. The so called crafting system is actually a gambling system.
2. PoE was designed around trading, not self-found.

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Luice wrote:

Why are people even playing this game if they don't use the orbs for anything except trading......

Depending on the players playstyle or how rich they are, they could be using certain currencies but not others. Thus there is nothing wrong with trading currencies you use, to people who do use them.

I've NEVER used a Chaos Orb. But tons of [rich] people spam dem Chaos' hoping for upgrades. I don't like that gamble, so I just sell the Chaos.

Pros to Alch+Scour vs Chaos: Can also use the Alchs just as Alchs, while saving the Scours for things only Scours can do (like clearing failed Chance-for-unique attempts).

Cons to Alch+Scour vs Chaos: Two clicks instead of one for Chaos effect.

If you factor out mouse clicks, Alch+Scour should just be equal to a Chaos, it should be worth more than a Chaos, since it's a strictly superior combination (can do things that Chaos can't). However, this isn't the case. In the past I've argued that 1 Alch + 1 Scour > 1 Chaos, but clearly the market does not agree. I need to check my premises; so let's start by looking at Chance-based unique creation.

There are essentially three ways to get your unique into usable condition using Orbs of Chance:

• Start with a 5- or 6-link, then toss Chances and Scourings at it until you get a unique.
• Start with a 6-socket, then toss Chance and Scouring at it until you get a unique, then toss Fusings at until you get a 5- or 6-link.
• Start with a nondescript white item, toss a Chance at it, if you fail get another nondescript white item, if you succeed toss Jewelers and Fusings at it until you get a 5- or 6-link.

So what we have here is the probability of succeeding with Orb of Chance, versus the chances of success with Jewelers and Fusings.

The thing is, the chance of Orb of Chance succeeding is very small, and the first two options require regular Scouring use; the third, however, does not. Thus, in order for Scourings to have a use outside of Chaos emulation (without which the extra clicking is pure con), Scourings need to be cheap enough to compete with the cost of just getting a new nondescript version of the base item.

This drives the market price of Scourings down, as it is their primary use outside of Chaos Orb emulation, and although the chances of Fusing are also very small, they're similar enough that the equilibrium would be approximately 1 Fusing = 1 Scouring. On the other hand, you have the Chaos emulation, which requires twice as much clicking but still works, and since Alchs are dirt cheap this pulls the price of Scouring upward, to an equilibrium of 1 Alch + 1 Scouring = 1 Chaos. These are two very different exchange ratios!

What ends up happening is that the third Orb of Chance crafting options triumphs over the other two, because Chaos emulation makes Scourings too expensive. Then, ironically, Scouring have no real use except Chaos emulation, thus the flexible utility of Scouring disappears as a pro, leaving only the more-clicks con, thus devaluing Scourings slightly, but not to such an extent that they become viable for Orb of Chance schemes.

One possible solution to this problem, which makes zero sense without reading the explanation above, is to manipulate Alchs to be worth more; perhaps GGG could decrease their droprate, or change how Alchemy Shards work, or edit some vendor formulae. If the value of an Alch were raised enough, the 1 Alch + 1 Scour = 1 Chaos formula for Chaos Orb emulation would allow Scours to further drop in price. This in turn would increase the chance of Scourings being cheaper than random white items (with high itemlevel), and thus increase the chances of Orb of Chance crafting using one of the first two solutions. Another possible solution is to manipulate Scouring prices more directly by having Scourings drop more often; this would also increase the value of Alchs, by the same Chaos emulation equilibrium formula.

I actually believe such action would be justified. Now that the Eternal Orb is in play, Scourings risk becoming something that's only use is to partially emulate the function of another orb. That doesn't help a currency feel valuable and special. If GGG does not wish to take such actions to preserve Scouring's role in Chance crafting, the best option at that point is probably just to remove the orb from the game. Better gone than to keep living as a lame duck.

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There are essentially three ways to get your unique into usable condition using Orbs of Chance:
Start with a 5- or 6-link, then toss Chances and Scourings at it until you get a unique.
Start with a 6-socket, then toss Chance and Scouring at it until you get a unique, then toss Fusings at until you get a 5- or 6-link.
Start with a nondescript white item, toss a Chance at it, if you fail get another nondescript white item, if you succeed toss Jewelers and Fusings at it until you get a 5- or 6-link.

You're a bit wrong.
1. There is no point to use chances+scourings on 5-L or 6-S item, when you can take 6-L item, which (in case of success) will make far more powerful (and expensive) item (except Kaom's heart - it should be crafted by using chances on a nondescript white). Usually, 6-linking an item takes 2000-2500 fusings (20-25 exa!!!), while nondescript 6-L item is worth just a few exa (4-6, maybe).
So, there are actually just 2 ways to obtain a good unique through craft.
1. Take a white 6-L item (or any 6-L item and scour it), and apply orb of chance + scouring orb till you drop.
2. Take a nondescript white item, apply orb of chance once, if result is bad, vendor it.

You should agree, that not all items are worth using orbs-rerolls. Only best of the best items should be worth applying reroll orbs, like chaos, or scouring + chance. If you apply chance + scour to a 5-L Karui Maul, you're just wasting your currency. Applying the same orbs to 6-L Karui Maul has more sense, but i think, it's still a currency waste.

But apply chance + scour to 6-L occultist Vestment can be wise. You can get 6-L Shavrone, which is worth far, far more, than Marohi Erqi, for example... You can also get 6-L infernal Mantle (not sure about it, but should be worthy too), or a good 6-L chest.

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One possible solution to this problem, which makes zero sense without reading the explanation above, is to manipulate Alchs to be worth more; perhaps GGG could decrease their droprate, or change how Alchemy Shards work, or edit some vendor formulae. If the value of an Alch were raised enough, the 1 Alch + 1 Scour = 1 Chaos formula for Chaos Orb emulation would allow Scours to further drop in price. This in turn would increase the chance of Scourings being cheaper than random white items (with high itemlevel), and thus increase the chances of Orb of Chance crafting using one of the first two solutions. Another possible solution is to manipulate Scouring prices more directly by having Scourings drop more often; this would also increase the value of Alchs, by the same Chaos emulation equilibrium formula.

I have a better solution:
Increase the chance, that orb of chance turns an item into unique. Also, a vendor should sell Orb of Scouring for 2 orbs of chance (not 4). This chance will make orbs of chance more valuable (and unique from other orbs).


P.S. You cant beat dumbness of people.

You're right, people should be willing to accept it. In fact, people should be even more willing to accept it. Unlike other "equal to" currencies, scour + alch actually --is-- equal or better based on how it's used.