Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

Maybe you don't understand what loot ninja really means?
It doesn't mean someone who literally steal items (to do that they would need to hack your account!)
It just means someone who is taking loot that they are not entitled to under the looting rules that they are playing by at that moment.
If I make a group and state that we will follow rule X and someone takes loot in a way not according to rule X, then that person is a ninja to me.
That the game itself does not enforce my rule is irrelevant.

This is not even about opinions. There are loot ninjas in the game, that's a fact. If you think that they are doing something wrong or not, that is your opinion.

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Sickness wrote:

Maybe you don't understand what loot ninja really means?
It doesn't mean someone who literally steal items (to do that they would need to hack your account!)
It just means someone who is taking loot that they are not entitled to under the looting rules that they are playing by at that moment.
If I make a group and state that we will follow rule X and someone takes loot in a way not according to rule X, then that person is a ninja to me.
That the game itself does not enforce my rule is irrelevant.

Well, if loot timers are not truly allocated loot. Then no one is really entitled to anything.


Sure, i can understand the concept of wanting to think loot timers means allocated. And using loot timers as allocted as the rule in the current game. But, anyone who breaks that made up rule is not a ninja... Hes a griefer.



I personaly think its insane to even expect anyone in public games to play by made up silly rules.

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Vooodu wrote:

Well, if loot timers are not truly allocated loot. Then no one is really entitled to anything.


Sure, i can understand the concept of wanting to think loot timers means allocated. And using loot timers as allocted as the rule in the current game. But, anyone who breaks that made up rule is not a ninja... Hes a griefer.

Doesn't matter. I can make any arbitrary loot rule I want. I can base it on the position of the stars if I so want. If you join my group and knowingly breaks the loot rules then you are by definition a loot ninja.

A ninja is a griefer.

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Vooodu wrote:

I personaly think its insane to even expect anyone in public games to play by made up silly rules.

Considering how you act yourself I perfectly understand that you think that!

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Vooodu wrote:

...Facts are facts. Ninjas don't exist, in this game anyways. I can prove this in about 2 seconds with a simple copy and paste. Something i have done a TON of times already.


Just because people like you think they exist doesn't matter. Also, another fact.



Prove me wrong.. And no your opinion is not good enough.



Facts and opinions are something you need to learn the difference between.

Using the word fact doesn't prove anything. Thats a fact. lol

You have proven nothing.

People's perceptions of the game do matter, especially to the devs.

Your making the claim that "there are no ninjas in the game is a fact" That means the burden of proof is on you to prove it. I have already explained how the word ninja is still very appropriate to this game, however I also said that its an opinion either way. No one can "prove" it. Do you understand that? Or do I need to explain it again?

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Vooodu wrote:

I personaly think its insane to even expect anyone in public games to play by made up silly rules.

Maybe that's why the host has the right to kick you. 'Cause you know... rules and all.

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Vooodu wrote:

Facts and opinions are something you need to learn the difference between.

You obviously have no idea what they mean. Maybe you can watch sickness' video and learn something.

Let me explain......

If I say that I believe its hot outside, thats my opinion and you can't "prove" me wrong in any way. Even if most people say that it feels cold outside that doesn't discount my opinion.

However if I say that Abraham Lincoln is the current president of the united states I would be objectively wrong.

Think about that for a bit and maybe just maybe you will understand why you are wrong in this discussion.

Absolutely nothing you have said about the silly "no ninja" discussion has PROVEN anything. You just spout off your opinion and pretend they are facts.

Got to go, I'll post later.

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iamstryker wrote:

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Vooodu wrote:

Facts and opinions are something you need to learn the difference between.

You obviously have no idea what they mean. Maybe you can watch sickness' video and learn something.

Good idea
Here you go Voduo:
http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/factsopinions/factsopinions.html

oooops

Voodu, and basically everybody that's against any suggestion regarding this ever, please answer these question:

Do you think the complaint many people have is legitimate? Do you think it's legitimate enough for GGG to try to "fix" it (somehow) in the future?

If you don't think so, do you at least acknowledge this mechanic seriously turns off several players, and makes the game much less enjoyable to them?
Do you at least realize their POV and why it turns them off?

Do you care about such a "little" mechanic bothering so many people or not?
Do you care about those people having a better enjoyment of the game, or do you just want the system as it is and not care about those people?

Do you think there is no way the system can be improved so those people get to enjoy the mechanic, without destroying the "core" features you guys (and GGG) advocate, or without you yourself losing enjoyment in the game?
Do you think it's not even worth it to seek such solution?


I get the feeling this is just an ego battle between people or something and the discussions are so all over the place it's not funny.
Please answer those core questions above, so we can push this discussion into meaningful places.



I want to be straight, in-game I don't give a shit about this system.
1)I don't really party (I just play solo) so this doesn't bother me at all in the game
2)When I do party, I don't give a shit about the dropped loot or if someone "ninjas" it or not. You can ninja all my stuff as you want and I'll be okay with it because it was my fault for not getting the item fast enough.

However, I acknowledge there is a problem for other people and I want it fixed so other people get to enjoy the game more, even if it has 0 impact on me.

I think it's either selfish or apathetic to ignore an issue you "have no problems with" if 60% of the player base does actually have problems with it.
This issue is "big" enough that it severely puts players off, enough to quit the game.
That's how "serious" it is.

That's enough to at least consider all points of views and rationally and systematically determine which ones are legitimate, which ones are just "whiny noobs", and determine what possible solutions it can have.
This way this game can get better, for everybody that plays it. This way the game can be fun for everybody.
Not only fun, but immersive and engaging


For instance, other than "lol I don't want no rules", nobody even tried to criticize my solution (the "Party inventory" one)
Yes, it may be bad, it may not work, but if nobody even tries to state why then it'll just fade to oblivion, when it has a chance of actually working and maybe fixing all these problems without any negative repercussions.
Will it? I dunno. I think it may, because I suggested it, but if it has no feedback, even from the guys that apparently just want to discard every suggestion regarding it, we can't know.
This is not a sane attitude for a feedback/suggestion/discussion environment.

What about other suggestions?

Here are 3 suggestions I approve a priori and can fix the problem at least partially:
1) If someone steals "your" loot, be able to kill him in a PvP match
2) Let the party leader choose the loot system when creating a party
3) Create a party inventory that's somehow handled between the party to see which member gets what loot
4) Hey, I'll add a new suggestion. Create different types of parties. Create a "public cut-throat party" which is supposed to be a bunch of strangers killing monsters. Here there is minimal communication bewteen party members, there is FFA loot, etc. Then create a "group play" party, which is supposed to be a close group of players actively working together as a party to advance in the game. Here there should be rules, there should be heavy communication between players, the loot system should be "balanced" in a way that benefits the group the most, etc. This way we differentiate the 2 "types" of group play, the cut-throat "Kill monsters but stay out of my way" one, and the "Let's play together and overcome obstacles like a group!" one.

These suggestions, in their raw form, yes, are not that "great".
That's what feedback is for. I'm sure without enough feedback and suggestions any of these suggestions can be balanced and make everybody happy.
Yet when all of these turn up, everybody ignores them and the same flamefest keeps going on

What a "normal" feedback discussion should be is like this:
*"Anti-FFA" players suggest on of those suggestions and how they'd implement them
*"Pro-FFA" players criticize specific parts of those suggestions and why in their minds they either won't work, or will be against any principle of the game they (and devs) have in their minds
*With that in mind, "Anti-FFA" players try to improve their suggestions to have a "best of both worlds" scenario.

Ideally, something is suggested so to "Pro-FFA" players nothing changes significantly (in terms of gameplay and principles), while "Anti-FFA" players get much more enjoyment from the gameplay changes

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gonzaw wrote:

...

Best post in this thread so far!

Here's my view of your 4 suggestions:
1) I guess GGG still needs to work on that one. If I'm not mistaken they wanted something like this from the beginning, so I hope we eventually get something like this. Ultimately this should be folded into 2) though.
3) Would be nice though I think that would be a lot of work for GGG.
4) Isn't that one the same as 2) ?

My preference is 2) and here's why and how:
There are lots of different players and each one may prefer a different play styles. The party leader should have several independent options for maximum benefit.
What I'd like to see:
- A slider for how long items should stay allocated for a player (from 0 to unlimited)
- A checkbox to keep the name on the item even after the timer has expired
- A checkbox that makes items only visible for the player an item is allocated for. When the timer expires it's visible for everyone.

I think with these 3 simple options every player can find a settings that's right for him.
From the professional race group to the old Diablo 2 pros, and from the group of friends to the once-in-a-while public party participant.