Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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Xaxyx wrote:

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timfromgoldsgym wrote:

FFA loot please. It creates more risk vs reward for the faster experience and more items dropped for grouping.

My understanding is that less total items drop in groups than in solo play. So it's already a penalty to play as a group, inherently, loot-wise.

Thus, there is no reward. There is only risk -- the risk of other players acting like jerks in order to scrape up the few precious scraps that the game leaves behind.

Indeed, if I were so bold, I might take the logical contra-positive of your statement: since there is in fact *less* reward item-wise in group play, then it must necessarily follow that FFA loot would not be recommended or preferred.

I thought there were more drops. Even if that is not so, the fact the drops are better quality makes it worth it.

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Alesana wrote:

So melee vs range:
Melee timer is shorter because they are closer, they can click on their item and pick it up before a range gets there.
Range timer is longer, so melee have plenty of time to stand on top of it and click on it as fast as they can while the ranged has to get out of position to make a beeline to the item. This isn't funny in hardcore.

I agree with this one; the "added distance" time bonus shouldn't simply assume that the ranged character makes a beeline for the dropped items. In numerous, if not most, cases, the path will not be safe, the timer will expire, and tankier characters can then pick it up at leisure (they won't have to do it midcombat unless the range character starts running up).

What we don't want, however, is to add a flat % modifier to the movespeed formula. The "item hold" when you're killing the final monster in the pack is just fine as it is now. Increase it and you'll end up with the scavengers in the party holding back, waiting for items to be released from hold.

I'm using bold and underline because I think this is a really good suggestion:
An additional time extension formula should be applied. First the game should counts the total HP of monsters within a close range of where the item falls (approximately the range of Sweep or Cleave). Then, the game takes each party member's highest-DPS skill and adds them all together. Using this HP and this DPS, the game determines the approximate time needed to kill the nearby monsters and adds that to the hold time.

This wouldn't be perfect; it wouldn't factor in AOE or armor or resistances, and it assumes the entire party has their DPS trained on the nearby monsters. However, it should at least add a little time to give ranged (and melee!) some time to clear the room before having to worry about rushing into dangerous situations to pick up items.

Edit for another idea: Instead, item hold time is frozen as long as a monster is within "trap trigger radius" of that item. This hold applies to movement speed time and half of the reaction time; the other half is unfreezable. "Trap trigger radius" describes the distance, and not the actual ability; trap passives won't help anyone here.

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timfromgoldsgym wrote:

FFA loot please. It creates more risk vs reward for the faster experience and more items dropped for grouping.

+ 1 I agree. FFA loot keeps a good amount of risk into party playing, that would not exist with instanced.

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heyyous wrote:

I Do not like the FFA style loot at all. I feel cheap when I ninja somebody's items and I think less of the person who does it to me. I typically but NO NINJA in my party title but it is very hard to tell what is dropping and where especially when you have a guy with culling strike and 200% quantity or whatever this guy I play with has.

This has kept me away from playing with the public most of the time. I was in a game where the title said "Maps to maker" and some guy takes the map... then later on a unique pair of gloves drops and the guy is like "I'll give you the map for the gloves"... So I gave him a Unique boot... Straight out of the party. We really do need an option to say Single loot No stealing. At least make it easy to ban people from the party and make it noticeable when somebody takes your loot. All I know is I get rich playing Alone and with people I wait 30-40mins for a drop. It's awful.

I have seen those in titles, it find it utterly disgusting. Sure do this with your friends if you will, but public party is a public party. People who don't like FFA loot don't seem to realize that when you play with a party and item is not yours till it's in your inventory. Also saying no ninjas in a title will tempt those very people to enter and annoy you, even maybe in pairs where one makes sure they stay in the party and the other grabs stuff.

Come open beta there will more people thought time will tell the reaction. I have played games with full instanced and full FFA, and I much prefer the FFA system. Instanced just felt so.. remote and sooo slow. The timer was made as a compromise but I don't see it satisfying many people in this thread.

I might grab items fast in combat, but I also give alot of stuff away. Keep that in mind before you respond.

EDIT:

Just as those who like instanced don't want to play with those who like FFA loot, the reverse is equally true. If someone complains in a FFA party about someone grabbing an item with their name on it then they are the one who is often kicked from the party. This divide on loot preferences goes both ways. Only difference is those who like FFA loot are less inclined in general to kick players from their party.

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timfromgoldsgym wrote:

I thought there were more drops. Even if that is not so, the fact the drops are better quality makes it worth it.

The only quality "bonus" applicable to group play is the fact that the quality change of the loot that drops is based on the player delivering the killing blow. Thus, only if players in a group cooperate (ha!) will there be any explicit overall quality bonus realized. Otherwise, it's more or less a wash on average, as everyone will be delivering killing blows.

Thus: there is no quality bonus. There is a quantity *penalty*. Why, therefore, is FFA loot worth anything? What is it supposed to be balanced against?

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Faerie_Storm wrote:

+ 1 I agree. FFA loot keeps a good amount of risk into party playing, that would not exist with instanced.

Party play experiences no "risk" with FFA loot. The same loot would drop whether the distribution method were fair or not. It's the same items either way. No, the only thing at "risk" here is the "risk" that REDS will have that many less players to bully and abuse. Strangely, I shed no tears over this "risk" factor.

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I have seen those in titles, it find it utterly disgusting. Sure do this with your friends if you will, but public party is a public party. People who don't like FFA loot don't seem to realize that when you play with a party and item is not yours till it's in your inventory. Also saying no ninjas in a title will tempt those very people to enter and annoy you, even maybe in pairs where one makes sure they stay in the party and the other grabs stuff.

Awesome. Players bully and abuse one another, by explicit game design; and you're "disgusted" when people want to avoid being treated this way. Yes, how offensive, how sickening, how utterly repugnant of players to want to be allowed to play together without being treated like garbage. The nerve of them.

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Come open beta there will more people thought time will tell the reaction. I have played games with full instanced and full FFA, and I much prefer the FFA system. Instanced just felt so.. remote and sooo slow. The timer was made as a compromise but I don't see it satisfying many people in this thread.

Why, then, would you care if we were allowed to make our own GREEN games where loot was instanced, and you were allowed to make your own RED games where players could merrily ninja each others' loot into the darkest hour of the night? How would YOUR game experience change if we GREENS, who are ALREADY playing in solo games, all by ourselves, getting our own, guaranteed personal loot, were to instead play together in in our own co-op games, all by ourselves, getting our own, guaranteed personal loot? At reduced drop rates, even?

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I might grab items fast in combat, but I also give alot of stuff away. Keep that in mind before you respond.

I'll keep that in mind. While we're at it, keep this in mind: I don't want your stuff. I just want you to keep your grubby, greedy hands off of my stuff. Yes, MY stuff; as in, the stuff I would have otherwise been absolutely guaranteed to pick up if I were playing solo.

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Just as those who like instanced don't want to play with those who like FFA loot, the reverse is equally true. If someone complains in a FFA party about someone grabbing an item with their name on it then they are the one who is often kicked from the party. This divide on loot preferences goes both ways. Only difference is those who like FFA loot are less inclined in general to kick players from their party.

My heart bleeds for your anguished suffering. Really. I'm horrified at the notion that your spine-tingling excitement from stealing Orbs from newbies might be threatened by our outrage. Somehow, though, I'm confident that you'll stumble onward through life.

Lay off on the personal attacks. I did write a section by section response but accidentally deleted it and can't be bothered to re-type it all.

so all I'm going to say is this. Stop judging my character, you have come to some very wrong conclusions about me with your personal attacks. Lay off on the personal attacks, we don't need mudslinging here.

The mechanics of loot drops are as follows:

1 player = 100% loot per mob, mob has 100% hp.

2 player = 150% loot per mob, mob has 150% hp.

3 players = 200% loot per mob, mob has 200% hp.

etc.


So if the 2 players grabbed everything that an average mob drops, they'd each get 75% of what the mob would drop solo, but they each only had to do 75% of the damage to the mob to kill it. This is somewhat countered by slightly higher mob counts, as well. Of course if either wanders off, the loot ratio (compared to solo) jumps up to 150% per person, but they have to deal 150% damage, which is why farming Fellshrine in a group but not together is so popular.

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Faerie_Storm wrote:

Lay off on the personal attacks. I did write a section by section response but accidentally deleted it and can't be bothered to re-type it all.

so all I'm going to say is this. Stop judging my character, you have come to some very wrong conclusions about me with your personal attacks. Lay off on the personal attacks, we don't need mudslinging here.

The very heart of this issue is personal. The very assertion that players should have the inherent right to bully, abuse, and grief other people is personal. And the critique that those players who are sick and tired of said bullying and abuse are in the wrong is a judgement of character.

Or, to put it more simply for you: you cannot simultaneously argue that you have to right to abuse people and exhibit sociopathic behavior in-game, but that no one has the right to call you on it in here. You cannot be both the bully and the victim at the same time.

So, go on, then. Woo us with the virtues and glories of the slobbering, mindless, every-n00b-for-himself chaos of FFA loot. Extoll us with the purity and nobility of snatching every Orb that falls within five feet of you, irrespective of any sense of fairness, sharing, or camaraderie. Defend the rights of the bully to engage in bullying, the rights of the griefer to engage in griefing. Stand up for your principles, for God and country. Give us what for.

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Faerie_Storm wrote:

I have seen those in titles, it find it utterly disgusting. Sure do this with your friends if you will, but public party is a public party. People who don't like FFA loot don't seem to realize that when you play with a party and item is not yours till it's in your inventory.

Its not disgusting that people are trying to influence the game in order to enjoy it.

You can tell those people all day that the item is not theirs until its in their inventory and it would make absolutely no difference. The current system already fairly divides up the loot for a very short period of time. The players are using this as a fair means to determine who gets what loot.

I have theorized for awhile now that there are more people in the game who would like a different/updated system to play on and I have yet to see any evidence that I am wrong. There are few public games every going on which is interesting but whats even more interesting is that when there are public games they usually try to enforce their own rules to get around the current system that they apparently find to be lacking. If people enjoyed this system so much then why don't they just play it as intended? Why don't they embrace the competition?

I believe that the game grants 50% IIQ for each additional player.

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Faerie_Storm wrote:

I have seen those in titles, it find it utterly disgusting. Sure do this with your friends if you will, but public party is a public party.

Disgust? Really? How are you disgusted over a party that you are not even in? How is the group dynamics of a group you’re not part of any of your dang business?

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Faerie_Storm wrote:

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timfromgoldsgym wrote:

FFA loot please. It creates more risk vs reward for the faster experience and more items dropped for grouping.

+ 1 I agree. FFA loot keeps a good amount of risk into party playing, that would not exist with instanced.

If loot allocation is the only risky part of co-op than the devs NEED to adjust the balance. Make the game harder, make the players earn the extra IIQ!!!!