Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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FireSkull wrote:

iamstryker speaks the truth. D3 is not challenging, its just a farming fest. No thought is needed.

To be fair PoE co-op is kind of mindless. Spam Spam Spam, rush for loot, repeat.

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FireSkull wrote:

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wrathmar wrote:

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FireSkull wrote:

iamstryker speaks the truth. D3 is not challenging, its just a farming fest. No thought is needed.

To be fair PoE co-op is kind of mindless. Spam Spam Spam, rush for loot, repeat.

The difference is that PoE has a skilltree, which D3 does not have. PoE itemization also requires you to think. In D3 itemization you just want the same damn mods for all pieces of eguipment...

Its not the feeling of the combat, its what makes your character strong and how you build it up.

That's rich. Everyone looks for the same stuff in PoE too.

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FireSkull wrote:

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wrathmar wrote:

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FireSkull wrote:

iamstryker speaks the truth. D3 is not challenging, its just a farming fest. No thought is needed.

To be fair PoE co-op is kind of mindless. Spam Spam Spam, rush for loot, repeat.

The difference is that PoE has a skilltree, which D3 does not have. PoE itemization also requires you to think. In D3 itemization you just want the same damn mods for all pieces of eguipment...

Its not the feeling of the combat, its what makes your character strong and how you build it up.

The skill tree, skill gems, and items add a layer of difficulty to the game. But right now combat in a co-op setting is EASY.

The devs need to up the difficulty for groups to make it more challenging and change the timer system to make it less frustrating

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wrathmar wrote:

The skill tree, skill gems, and items add a layer of difficulty to the game. But right now combat in a co-op setting is EASY.

The devs need to up the difficulty for groups to make it more challenging and change the timer system to make it less frustrating

It's actually easier in solo for me right now. I lag less.

Okay.
The devs need to up the difficulty for groups to make it more challenging, change the timer system to make it less frustrating, and fix the lag issues.

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FireSkull wrote:

ifarmpandas go check out a PoE build of the week video then.

Anyway im too lazy to debate more D3, I just wanted to say that stryker speaks the truth.

Sure it has more options, but all those builds suck compared to what I and most others run. Even for the builds running non-standard skills they all stack the same stats (crit multi, WED, ES/hp, fcr, etc).

hi all,
i'm pretty sure we've all experienced the party member that just joins to pinch the best loot that drops, then logs or portals out.

sug 1, teleing/ during the instance be denied and only enabled by map provider. if a player logs then his/her inv gets dropped on the floor.

sug 2, all party members inv be viewable by map provider upon clearance of the dg. simply by a right click on char view inv.

sug 3, or any uniques that drop go automatically to map provider. up to him/her then if he/she wants to share with friends in party.

sug 4, or any/all loot/drops cannot be picked up untill the instance has been cleared and map provider enables pickup.

sad that these ideas are put forward, but people can be very disrespectfull and untrustworthy.

these might already be in place i don't know as i have not setup a party before this post, if they are then plz ignore sorry to bother you.

advised to post this here so i am

The heart of this argument, methinks, revolves around the Prisoner's Dilemma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

Consider, if you will, three parallel two-player games of PoE.

In game #1, two GREENS are merrily bounding along when one spots a group of zombies on the horizon. Running up, he wtfpwns the zombies. And from the zombies' bellies burst forth not one, but two Orbs of Awesomesauce! One Orb has a timer for the attacking player; the other has a timer for his companion. But that second Orb is juuuuuust off the edge of the screen; the second player doesn't see it.

Being GREEN in nature, the player calls over his friend, and each player picks up one Orb. The end.

This same scenario repeats itself, endlessly, over the course of their game. Sometimes it's player #1 who finds the Orbs; sometimes it's player #2. But it doesn't matter, since they both always share. So in the end, on average, each GREEN has a similar amount of loot.

In game #2, two REDS are slinking forward, every watchful, ever wary, when one spots a group of zombies. Leaping forward, he mercilessly shreds the wretched creatures. And from their bellies burst forth two Orbs of Awesomesauce. Again, each Orb has a timer for each player. Again, the other player's Orb is just outside the field of his vision.

Being RED in nature, the player immediately snatches up the Orb that was allocated to him. Then, the player leans toward the monitor, watching with sadistic, cackling, primal glee as the loot timer oh-so-slowly ticks down. Three... *wipes away drool*... two... *adjusts underwear*... ONE... EUPHORIA! He grabs the second Orb and runs off into the shadows, congratulating himself on his own awesomeness. Meanwhile, of course, the other RED is doing exactly the same thing.

Again, this same scenario repeats itself, endlessly; but, on average, this scenario will happen for both REDS about the same amount of time. So in the end, all things being equal, each player arguably ends up with a similar amount of loot. Their RED natures provide no real benefit, as each cancels the other.

In game #3, one RED and one GREEN are adventuring together. The GREEN, of course, is oblivious to the RED's true nature; and the RED, naturally, doesn't give a rat's ass either way. Herein, two different scenarios can occur: the GREEN can stumble upon two Orbs, whereupon he'll share the Orbs with the RED; or, the RED will stumble upon two Orbs, and keep them both.

So when the smoke clears, on average, for every four Orbs that drop, the RED acquires three and the GREEN acquires one. This means that the RED will collect three times as many Orbs as the GREEN.

Now, let's break this all down in terms of the Prisoner's Dilemma:

- If both prisoners (i.e., players) cooperate and act in a trustworthy manner, then they each get a fair amount of loot apportioned.

- If both players betray one another constantly, then they still each get a fair amount of loot apportioned.

- If only one player betrays the other, then the betrayer receives a disproportionate reward.

Thus, logically, the most efficient and effective strategy is for everyone to play RED. Snatch it all up, be greedy; it all averages out in the end. It's rather ironic that this is, in actuality, no more or less efficient overall than just playing pure GREEN. But this strategy solves the Prisoner's Dilemma aspect of loot at its simplest level.

The problem, however, is that the Prisoner's Dilemma wasn't intended to be this simplistic. In the true Prisoner's Dilemma, should both prisoners betray one another (i.e., choose RED), their rewards are supposed to be worse than if both prisoners cooperate (i.e., choose GREEN). That is to say, there is supposed to exist a benefit, an enticement for both persons to work together. That's the whole point of the Prisoner's Dilemma, in fact: each prisoner needs to individually decide whether blindly attempting cooperate will be to his benefit or not.

But in order for that choice to be meaningful; in order for the player to be able to weigh the pros and cons of cooperation vs. betrayal; there has to actually be a marked distinction between the rewards. More specifically, the rewards for cooperation must necessarily be SUPERIOR to the rewards for mutual betrayal.

However, as demonstrated, there is no greater reward for two GREENS who cooperate vs. two REDS who predictably mutually betray one another. The quantity of Orbs that drop, on average, remains the same. The distribution of these Orbs, on average, remains the same. Thus, PoE's loot system constitutes a broken Prisoner's Dilemma. It ONLY ever makes sense to be a RED player in a public game. It is NEVER more beneficial to play as a GREEN player; at the most, that player can only possibly break even, and only if all other players in the game happen to also be GREEN.

I'll be pondering this dilemma today. I invite you all to do the same.