Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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Aixius wrote:

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markshiu wrote:

"

Aixius wrote:

It doesn't sound like your friends are too into co-op if "opportunity for personal gain" is all it takes to bring it all down.

PoE will give you the opportunity to see how into sharing your friends really are!

If you read previous conversation/this thread, there was an argument that your friend may be in another league or level.

When you die from Hardcore, your friends may stay there, and either you level again (on your own?) or you go on Softcore. Neither of the cause can blame your friends. The problem is STILL the loot system.

What does that have to do with what I said or what Minioneer said? He said he and his friends don't like loot systems that pit them against each other.

Hmm, there is problem within the loot system.

What I think is, both FFA and instance loot have their disadvantages; maybe settings by party would be easier for everyone, where you set the ground rules for different people.

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HerrKaputt wrote:

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Squirrelloid wrote:

All i'm going to say is that any loot system which puts me in competition with other players for items is a system which will see me playing very little multiplayer.

Which is fine. This can be yet another single player game for me. I doubt I'm alone.

If you want to encourage people to play multiplayer, a loot system which rewards everyone equally is essential. And I'm not convinced most people are interested in a loot system which pits party members against each other. I know I'm not. I'd like to be able to kill monsters with a group and *then* worry about loot.

Basically, how do you want people to play the game. And I don't mean at the level of 'we want a cutthroat feel to loot'. I mean 'we want people to primarily play single player' or 'we want people to play multiplayer with random groups of people they don't know'. You need to incentivize the type of play you want. If you want people to multiplayer in pickup groups, cutthroat loot is precisely the wrong design decision.

I'm also curious how you intend to deal with auto-looting scripts.

Edit: My one experience with a 4-man team was Merciless Act 2 boss, and the loot pinata was so big (and the game loot display fails to compact well, it puts too much space between item names), that I had to move around to even read all the items that dropped. By the time I could click on a rare marked for me the timer had already run out. I got some rares, but only because everyone else was presumably having the same problems, and its not like i was choosing rares i wanted, just clicking on any available yellow text. Feeling like I'm fighting the interface and the other players for loot? Not fun at all.

+ over 9000

In my opinion, looting should be like in Guild Wars: each and every item (including whites!) should be assigned to one player. In GW, it was too drastic: even if one player ignored an item assigned to him you could not get it. Thus, I propose a timer like you have, but considerably longer (say, 30 seconds). This way, even interface problems or large item pinatas won't keep you from getting the items you want.

Actually, most Asia MMORPG are using that system. Since it is MMORPG, other people may walk by.

Another thing is, the item will disappear in those MMORPG, since they never restart the instance.

Since this has been a couple of days, I will re-post this, and try to put everyone's idea into a summary. And please continue to discuss and provide more solutions.


Summary (added idea #12):


Settings:
1) Global wise - across all leagues
2) League wise - different league has different looting options
3) Party wise - different party has different looting options


Looting options:
1) Need for Greed (roll between first requester and owner)
2) Extend Timer (set by developers)
3) Extend Timer (set by own player)
4) Free for All
5) Only for Me (not show to public)
6) Only for Me (show to public)
7) Class Points Earn
8) Extend Timer (keep alive in combat)
9) Need for Greed (time limit roll - time limit for requester, and only owner needs to click on need)
10) Extend Timer (set by party leader)
11) Roll between FFA requester (reasonable timer to request for item with indication on participant in roll)
12) MMORPG standard (show to public with timer)


----------------------------------------------------------

1) Need for Greed (roll between first requester and owner)
Pros:
- Respect the owner / entitle person.
- Maintain FFA, where only first person can roll with the owner
Cons:
- People keep pressing for need, even their inventory is full, and ended up dropping it?
- Take time to implement (both client and server side)
- Remember previous roll winner for points earn in a party
- Those who are far away may not able to get the roll
- Too many popup (too many good items belong to you only) may slow down the game.

2) Extend Timer (set by developers)
Pros:
- You got more time to loot
Cons:
- May still endup in an argument like this, never end.
- Slow down the game as players wait for the time to expire

3) Extend Timer (set by own player)
Pros:
- You can set your timer
Cons:
- Everyone is going to set 99 seconds, and the point is?
- Slow down the game as players wait for the time to expire

4) Free for All
Pros:
- Being more competitive and exciting
(is there more?)
Cons:
- Defeat the purpose of co-op play, reduce party chemistry
- Players stand-still just to wait for the timer, thus, slow the game
- Players looting whatever, inventory being full, then go back to town, thus, slow the game (same as above)

5) Only For Me (not show to public)
Pros:
- Secure items
- No slow down on the game, items can be picked after combat
Cons:
- Wasting items that might be useful for other party members
- Reduce party chemistry, reduce conversation

6) Only For Me (show to public)
Pros:
- Secure items
- Better party chemistry with more conversation in chat (trade, ask for item information, ...)
- No slow down on the game, items can be picked after combat
Cons:
- Other ask for items, may require to go back, and slow the game / wasting item

7) Class Points Earn
Pros:
- Make use of item for the proper class
- Fair to all classes
- Discourage farming character, encourage perfect party (all 6 classes in one party)
Cons:
- Take time to implement
- Problem with the same class on a party
- May not work for rare built

8) Extend Timer (keep alive in combat)
Pros:
- No slow down on the game, items can be picked after combat
- Players can focus on fighting, and encourage team fighting / efficiency
- Maintain FFA option
Cons:
- Requires to wait for owner / whole party to be out of combat
- Implementation time
- Items never expire due to owner wants to keep fighting (with a radius?)
- Too many items that covered the screen before combat is done

9) Need for Greed (Delay roll - roll between requester within a time period, or FFA after)
Pros:
- Everyone has a chance to roll, as you either wait for the timer to expire, or roll with other requests.
- Maintain FFA (once delay timer expired)
- Respect owner / entitle person (anyone click on the item between the timer can roll with the owner)
Cons:
- People keep pressing for need, even their inventory is full, and ended up dropping it?
- Take time to implement (both client and server side)
- Remember previous roll winner for points earn in a party
- Too many popup (too many good items belong to you only) may slow down the game.

10) Extend Timer (set by party leader)
Possibility to set it to infinite ("Only for Me") or to 0 (FFA), with different timer choices in between. Every party can adjust to their optimal balance.
Pros:
- May adjust expectation accordingly
- Add current distance timer on top of party timer
- No more complaints by users (can set according to their likes)
Cons:
-

11) Roll between FFA requester (reasonable timer to click to mark item on ground to indicate participation in dice roll, optionally influenced by previous player action)
Pros:
- no one need to click need
- no rush for the item (timer may set by party leader)
- show if you are requested for the item (and move on)
Cons:
- implementation time may be long
- abandoned entitle player

12) MMORPG standard (show to public with timer, item will be FFA after 20 seconds/party settings, item will be disappear in 120 seconds)
Pros:
- enough time to loot, either default at 20 seconds, or set by party
- items will disappear to reduce the number of things covering the screen
- allow FFA and sharing with the correct timer
Cons:
- disappear item could be useful, since it takes more than 120 seconds to visit the vendor.
- nothing new, just like other MMORPG


----------------------------------------------------------
Please let me know if I missed any points here, or mis-represent any points.

Not been able ot read all 158 pages on this but as a fairly new member to the game my 2p worth.


As it stands I will not join co-op games at all now, way to much grief from people if they think you picked up something that might have had a timer on it for them. Timer is way too short and impossible to see a lot of the time. Had one guy whine as I picked up a portal scroll he thought was his...pleaseeee.

I'm playing a summoner ice witch with over 25 summons and a totem. There is no way I can spot 'my loot' and get to it before that tiny timer runs out. My totem alone is hitting things that are offscreen nevermind my ever wandering summons that seems to like to walk to the end of the map.


I like the idea's posted above, make party leader able to dictate the 'terms' of the party loot system. If people join and already know the loot rules for that party then there can be no whining if you pick something up.


Free for all as it stands now is to me simply free aggro and I will not join any co-op game due to it.

I see wery few partys in POE HC, because off how drops works.
Most people like me only party friends or make a kill act 2 boss party . and leave after hes dead.
Only way to get your loot in hc for alot off builds, are alone -> solo / singleplayer game with chat option.

So FFA and timer isnt working to its best for HC.
I would suggest some else or way longer timers for HC.
I totally understand GGG´s reason for cut throat and sc ffa, but for hc its a party breaker for 99% off all players.

Just my thought about this matter ...
D-molisher clan-DA staff.

I think the best choice is the solomonic one: Leave it up to the players (or, to be exact, the party leader). After creating a party, she has the choice to set a timer of X seconds + running time if she wishes. The allowed values of X should be not to high ... maybe ten seconds as maximum value. I propose free for all as default mode.

For me, the timer is mostly a nuisance. I only team up with friends, and we decide for ourselves who is getting the loot (that means a little waiting from time to time).

Edit: A, a fine post a little above. I'd vote for:
Settings: #3 (with #2 default settings).
Looting options: #10.

That option also has a con: It can lead to discussions about the timer (takes time or even screw up the party if no consent can be made). But, if the latter should be true, the party will screw up sooner or later anyway. But, in my opinion, the con/s against other proposals is/are far greater than this one.

Since this has been a couple of days, I will re-post this, and try to put everyone's idea into a summary. And please continue to discuss and provide more solutions.


Summary (added cons to party decisions):


Settings:
1) Global wise - across all leagues
2) League wise - different league has different looting options
3) Party wise - different party has different looting options


Looting options:
1) Need for Greed (roll between first requester and owner)
2) Extend Timer (set by developers)
3) Extend Timer (set by own player)
4) Free for All
5) Only for Me (not show to public)
6) Only for Me (show to public)
7) Class Points Earn
8) Extend Timer (keep alive in combat)
9) Need for Greed (time limit roll - time limit for requester, and only owner needs to click on need)
10) Extend Timer (set by party leader)
11) Roll between FFA requester (reasonable timer to request for item with indication on participant in roll)
12) MMORPG standard (show to public with timer)


----------------------------------------------------------

1) Need for Greed (roll between first requester and owner)
Pros:
- Respect the owner / entitle person.
- Maintain FFA, where only first person can roll with the owner
Cons:
- People keep pressing for need, even their inventory is full, and ended up dropping it?
- Take time to implement (both client and server side)
- Remember previous roll winner for points earn in a party
- Those who are far away may not able to get the roll
- Too many popup (too many good items belong to you only) may slow down the game.

2) Extend Timer (set by developers)
Pros:
- You got more time to loot
Cons:
- May still endup in an argument like this, never end.
- Slow down the game as players wait for the time to expire

3) Extend Timer (set by own player)
Pros:
- You can set your timer
Cons:
- Everyone is going to set 99 seconds, and the point is?
- Slow down the game as players wait for the time to expire

4) Free for All
Pros:
- Being more competitive and exciting
(is there more?)
Cons:
- Defeat the purpose of co-op play, reduce party chemistry
- Players stand-still just to wait for the timer, thus, slow the game
- Players looting whatever, inventory being full, then go back to town, thus, slow the game (same as above)

5) Only For Me (not show to public)
Pros:
- Secure items
- No slow down on the game, items can be picked after combat
Cons:
- Wasting items that might be useful for other party members
- Reduce party chemistry, reduce conversation

6) Only For Me (show to public)
Pros:
- Secure items
- Better party chemistry with more conversation in chat (trade, ask for item information, ...)
- No slow down on the game, items can be picked after combat
Cons:
- Other ask for items, may require to go back, and slow the game / wasting item

7) Class Points Earn
Pros:
- Make use of item for the proper class
- Fair to all classes
- Discourage farming character, encourage perfect party (all 6 classes in one party)
Cons:
- Take time to implement
- Problem with the same class on a party
- May not work for rare built

8) Extend Timer (keep alive in combat)
Pros:
- No slow down on the game, items can be picked after combat
- Players can focus on fighting, and encourage team fighting / efficiency
- Maintain FFA option
Cons:
- Requires to wait for owner / whole party to be out of combat
- Implementation time
- Items never expire due to owner wants to keep fighting (with a radius?)
- Too many items that covered the screen before combat is done

9) Need for Greed (Delay roll - roll between requester within a time period, or FFA after)
Pros:
- Everyone has a chance to roll, as you either wait for the timer to expire, or roll with other requests.
- Maintain FFA (once delay timer expired)
- Respect owner / entitle person (anyone click on the item between the timer can roll with the owner)
Cons:
- People keep pressing for need, even their inventory is full, and ended up dropping it?
- Take time to implement (both client and server side)
- Remember previous roll winner for points earn in a party
- Too many popup (too many good items belong to you only) may slow down the game.

10) Extend Timer (set by party leader)
Possibility to set it to infinite ("Only for Me") or to 0 (FFA), with different timer choices in between. Every party can adjust to their optimal balance.
Pros:
- May adjust expectation accordingly
- Add current distance timer on top of party timer
- No more complaints by users (can set according to their likes)
Cons:
- Disagreement on timer settings

11) Roll between FFA requester (reasonable timer to click to mark item on ground to indicate participation in dice roll, optionally influenced by previous player action)
Pros:
- no one need to click need
- no rush for the item (timer may set by party leader)
- show if you are requested for the item (and move on)
Cons:
- implementation time may be long
- abandoned entitle player

12) MMORPG standard (show to public with timer, item will be FFA after 20 seconds/party settings, item will be disappear in 120 seconds)
Pros:
- enough time to loot, either default at 20 seconds, or set by party
- items will disappear to reduce the number of things covering the screen
- allow FFA and sharing with the correct timer
Cons:
- disappear item could be useful, since it takes more than 120 seconds to visit the vendor.
- nothing new, just like other MMORPG


----------------------------------------------------------
Please let me know if I missed any points here, or mis-represent any points.

I do like the idea of individual looting like in Diablo 3, not to compare this game to it but i like how it works. I do like the amount of time you get to pick up the item as well before it becomes available to anyone but if thats going to be the choice make the time to pick it up about 20 seconds. Gives ranged players a chance to get to it etc.

"

Trickyraw wrote:

I do like the idea of individual looting like in Diablo 3, not to compare this game to it but i like how it works. I do like the amount of time you get to pick up the item as well before it becomes available to anyone but if thats going to be the choice make the time to pick it up about 20 seconds. Gives ranged players a chance to get to it etc.

+1

My suggestion would be that a monster drops for every player in the party items that just this player can see and loot - as if every player would kill the monster in his own game on their own.

Well, would slow down the party if every monster would drop in this way, but I think it would be nice for bosses or all monster with a higher chance to drop rate items.