My thoughts after Level 25, 20 hours played

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Perhaps you'd benefit from reading the beta manifesto? Namely the part entitled "Tutorial"? Though I highly recommend reading the whole thing.

Already did. There is a big difference between tooltips to tell you to use flasks and explaining how orbs/items/gems work. I'm sorry, but a game cannot fully rely on general chat to teach players how to play the game, thats severely dated. Like I said before, all it would take is a 5-10 minute quest that goes over the recipe system and a few basic orbs. You obviously don't want to tell a new player everything about the system, but it would be nice to at least get a basic understanding of what you are doing at some point during the first 10 levels. I would say explaining the basic 3 gems, the quality system, and explaining how recipes work (without revealing any) would get the player interested enough to learn on his own, and would make the first orb of alchemy drop very exciting.

I think a full tutorial would be a hassle. A tutorial mission would also kill immersion. Most players of this game are coming from a gaming background and won't need that much explanation for anything aside from maybe the gem system and the currency/crafting system. Tooltips and browsing the website can teach that just fine.

I guess I don't know what you're expecting. Did D3 have a tutorial that I completely missed? Or Torchlight 2? Or D2 even? Why does this game need one so badly? Especially when the site lays it all out so plainly.

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turtledog wrote:

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draevin wrote:

If I listed all the food I've eaten, does that make me a chef?

Obviously not, so it is interesting to me that because you've played some video games, you're suddenly an expert on an entire game that you have have barely touched in terms of the depth.

Reviewing a beta is like reviewing a movie that might have finished filming, but is currently being edited. It is a flawed idea.

Level 25 is in my opinion the start of seeing this games potential, and my character is lvl 40. No great feat, but there IS a difference in character development and playstyle even in those 15 levels.

I'm sorry if this comes off as offensive, but your "thoughts after level 25..." are not as inclusive as you seem to think of them.

Where do I claim to be an expert on this game? Where do I claim that my thoughts are "inclusive"?

It clearly says my thoughts after 20 hours.. If you think players will pick up this game and stick with it in the current state after a full release you are kidding yourself, it definitely needs to be more user-friendly in order to be popular. The goal shouldn't be to see this games potential after 20+ hours of play, it should be to see that potential and realize it from the get-go.

I don't appreciate you posting a bunch of condescending rude comments just because you think the game is perfect and I must know nothing, it clearly says my thoughts, and if everyone disagrees with me that is fine.

If this game doesn't revamp the learning curve so that people dont throw their first 20-100 hours of playtime away, it will probably maintain a small following and have a great community, but it will never pull players from bigger games and be a hit long term, in my opinion. That said, I read the beta manifesto before I posted this thread, and they seem to want to make the player have more knowledge early on, thus meaning the first character will be much more viable.

I'm sorry if you felt that I was being condescending, but any game with long-lasting replay-ability takes a ton of time to get into and understand. The learning curve of this game is a huge draw-in for people who want a more long term experience. I really don't know when the gaming industry decided that it's consumers didn't like figuring things out on their own, but for a great deal of us its what can make a game great.

This type of game is meant to be played for quite a while, and personally I would rather spend a long time learning all of the intricacies over being spoon fed every little detail. To say that it will maintain a small following shows that you don't understand the power of FtP games, nor the sour taste ToG left in the genres true player base.


Obviously you and I wont agree, but I personally do not want this game made casual friendly (lets face it, that is exactly what "user-friendly" means in any game). A tutorial is unnecessary, would tell players that they're too stupid to figure the game out. Making mistakes is part of developing a character that you are satisfied with and excited about, because once you learn from them, you have actually made progress in the game other than another level of exp on a predetermined character course.

I see nothing wrong, and in fact am strongly in favor of, an optional tutorial that explains..

skill gems
sockets
links
vendors
orbs

Some people may find it obvious that a gem can go into a socket and give you a skill, but it isn't that transparent to all players. Myself, the first time I got a skill gem, for some reason I assumed it would have to go into a weapon. I quickly played around and figured out that wasn't the case, but still.

The vendoring system is totally hidden from the player currently, there is nothing in the game that will tell you to trade 5 whites for an ID scroll, for example, and that should be remedied.

Nothing in a tutorial presumes ignorance of the player, just like nothing in a manual presumes ignorance of the buyer. If you don't want to use a tutorial, turn it off. It isn't that difficult.

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draevin wrote:

I'm sorry if you felt that I was being condescending, but any game with long-lasting replay-ability takes a ton of time to get into and understand.

Wrong. The best games have tons of replay-ability AND are easy to get into. Why would anyone want to make a game that is hard to get into? That defies logic.

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draevin wrote:

The learning curve of this game is a huge draw-in for people who want a more long term experience. I really don't know when the gaming industry decided that it's consumers didn't like figuring things out on their own, but for a great deal of us its what can make a game great.

There is a difference between making the game easy to play and making it easy to master. I don't want everything to be explained to me, but I would like to be able to understand what I am trying to get better at. This game just makes you look on the forums/general chat, which is retarded. If players want to use the forums and chat to make the learning occur quicker, I encourage that, but it shouldn't be necessary to know how the game works.

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draevin wrote:

This type of game is meant to be played for quite a while, and personally I would rather spend a long time learning all of the intricacies over being spoon fed every little detail.

Again you are missing my point. How would learning how orbs and skills work in the first few levels teach you all the intricacies of the entire game? Nobody wants to be spoon fed, but most people also don't want a sandbox game with no explanation. Customization and big learning curves don't make a game, just look at all the true sandbox MMO's and ARPG's that have failed in the past, it's the gameplay and end-game content that make a game fun, and it's the customization that makes a game unique and long-term viable.

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draevin wrote:

Obviously you and I wont agree, but I personally do not want this game made casual friendly (lets face it, that is exactly what "user-friendly" means in any game). A tutorial is unnecessary, would tell players that they're too stupid to figure the game out. Making mistakes is part of developing a character that you are satisfied with and excited about, because once you learn from them, you have actually made progress in the game other than another level of exp on a predetermined character course.

You don't want this game to be casual-friendly? WHAT?! That's just ridiculous. So because people have jobs and families and can't devote their lives to playing this game and reading the forums, they shouldn't be capable of enjoying it or being successful... You are just in it for yourself, not the game of the other players, obviously.

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I think a full tutorial would be a hassle. A tutorial mission would also kill immersion. Most players of this game are coming from a gaming background and won't need that much explanation for anything aside from maybe the gem system and the currency/crafting system. Tooltips and browsing the website can teach that just fine.

I guess I don't know what you're expecting. Did D3 have a tutorial that I completely missed? Or Torchlight 2? Or D2 even? Why does this game need one so badly? Especially when the site lays it all out so plainly.

Because all of those games have taken industry standards and made almost no changes. D3 crafting is so simple a monkey could do it, and there is nothing else to do in diablo other than right click to identify rares and sell them to the vendor for gold or salvage them for the 2 different crafting mats per difficulty.

This game however, has a very interesting and semi-complex system for items and loot, which is awesome, it just needs to be explained somewhere in the game, not just on the forums by other players.

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turtledog wrote:

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I think a full tutorial would be a hassle. A tutorial mission would also kill immersion. Most players of this game are coming from a gaming background and won't need that much explanation for anything aside from maybe the gem system and the currency/crafting system. Tooltips and browsing the website can teach that just fine.

I guess I don't know what you're expecting. Did D3 have a tutorial that I completely missed? Or Torchlight 2? Or D2 even? Why does this game need one so badly? Especially when the site lays it all out so plainly.

Because all of those games have taken industry standards and made almost no changes. D3 crafting is so simple a monkey could do it, and there is nothing else to do in diablo other than right click to identify rares and sell them to the vendor for gold or salvage them for the 2 different crafting mats per difficulty.

This game however, has a very interesting and semi-complex system for items and loot, which is awesome, it just needs to be explained somewhere in the game, not just on the forums by other players.

Well, I see your point, but I still think most people ultimately figure it out. I look forward to seeing how GGG addresses the tutorial issue, but I'm not expecting a lot.

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turtledog wrote:

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draevin wrote:

I'm sorry if you felt that I was being condescending, but any game with long-lasting replay-ability takes a ton of time to get into and understand.

Wrong. The best games have tons of replay-ability AND are easy to get into. Why would anyone want to make a game that is hard to get into? That defies logic.

Yeah, that was a bit of a nonsensical statement by draevin. Many of my favourite games, and ones I've spent most time playing, have had tutorials of one form or another. The idea that long-lasting games are by nature hard to get into is absurd.

What's not to understand about the game mechanics? I don't follow. Red gems fit in red sockets! hmm, there's a brain teaser.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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turtledog wrote:

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draevin wrote:

I'm sorry if you felt that I was being condescending, but any game with long-lasting replay-ability takes a ton of time to get into and understand.

Wrong. The best games have tons of replay-ability AND are easy to get into. Why would anyone want to make a game that is hard to get into? That defies logic.

Yeah, that was a bit of a nonsensical statement by draevin. Many of my favourite games, and ones I've spent most time playing, have had tutorials of one form or another. The idea that long-lasting games are by nature hard to get into is absurd.

A tutorial in the game in the form of message at the bottom of the screen would be fine up to the point where you get to the first town. All items have a tooltip on them already, the only way the game can be more descriptive about each orb/system the game uses is to interrupt gameplay every thirty seconds to show you an instructive video of what everything does/ how to set up skills. I for one, would not enjoy this. After about two weeks of playing, I have come to understand the game fairly well by simply reading descriptions of passives/skills etc..

With the exception of a few features that I would never have found out without being told (such as being able to create a new instance of an area by control-clicking an entrance) everything is pretty self-explanatory already.

I find that the game was easy enough to understand and get into (could have been easier but was still not a big deal) but it will be a long time before I master all there is to know. That is a quality that a game with a lot of replay-ability has, and the reason why the tutorial should not cover absolutely EVERYTHING there is to know.