Map Progression vs RNG 2.0 ( Feedback & Consolidated Player Solutions)
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Decided to load up some maps today after a bit of a break from them. Long story short, it was a horrid day of mapping. I had about a 25% return rate on map drops after running about 20. My stock of maps now pretty much consists of a handful of maps above lvl 66 and about 50 level 66s.
Back to taking a break from mapping. Oh well, off to bed. Maybe tomorrows farming session will make up for todays map failure. -Dragon DISCLAIMER! The views and expressed opinions of Dragon are solely those of a drunken redneck and are not necessarily those of a sane person. Any likeness of intelligence is strictly coincidental and should not be taken seriously. His posts should not be read... by anyone. Last edited by Dragon585#3483 on May 8, 2013, 2:17:04 AM
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I'm experimenting with a strategy for mapping that mainly aims at stopping the constant feeling of despair when you don't find maps for your top-end maps and face being thrown back at 66s.
It uses a few simple rules: 1) Never play any of your top n maps (I have chosen n to be 24, which is EXTREMELY conservative). Decrease n ever so slowly as your map level grows (when I start to play 71s, I may go to n=20) 2) If you fall to n maps, buy more maps. There are some great deals out there on mid-tier maps to be had by people who play L75 maps and have a lot of spare mid-tier maps 3) Sell maps that are more than two levels below the one you are playing 4) Trade up the truly crappy maps at the vendor (as I can't sell them to players): for me 3 Ghettos make a Catacombs and 3 Underground Seas make a Temple. 5) Do not craft other things than maps, as you will need your currency. (In fact: you should NEVER craft anything other than maps as buying is cheaper, but that is my opinion) 6) Alchemise&Transmute Early, Alterate and Chaos Late: as soon as you have a map you don't want to Chisel, use an Alteration or Alchemy Orb on it. Only use Chaos/Alterations when you want to use the map. This gives early insight in map quality yet retains maximum flexibility. If you may want to chisel the map, leave it white for now. So right now my map store is: 68: 1 69: 11 70: 17 71: 9 72: 1 I'm playing the bad 70s: Bogs & Coves (barely: I can afford to lose three more 70s and then it is back to grinding 69s) and am selling the 66-68s. As said above this is mainly psychological. Whenever I'm on a bad streak, I look at my store of 25+ maps that are higher than I'm playing and say to myself "I got 25 beautiful maps left". And it has been quite a lot of work to get here from 66s. But I'm progressing, my average map level is growing, and I endure. Dear Maligaro, I left my head in San Francisco, I lost my legs in Peru My liver and kidney are on holiday in Sydney And I am sending my Heart to you --- Love, Malachai Last edited by Flapdrol#5373 on May 8, 2013, 9:02:30 AM
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Spoiler
" That was quite interesting until I read the part about buying maps when you run out. I won't do that. In fact, I have pretty much banned buying anything from other players for now as prices are out of control. The goal of this thread is to convince GGG that we should not need to resort to such drastic measures in order to play maps. I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but having to buy your maps from other players then spending loads of currency on them trying to get more maps is not a currency sink. It is a black hole. Myself and quite a few others are already at the point where we just aren't willing to do it anymore. So what we have is a system that is so punishing that few players are rich enough to even attempt it. I see a problem with that. I hope Chris does too. If not, then I will just have to try harder to convince him ;) I have done something pretty similar. In my latest attempt to progress above 70s, I tried to build up a pile of 30 70+ before running them. What ended up happening is me completely running out of 67-69 maps. So what I am left with is the pile of 70+ that I didn't want to attempt until I had a comfortable stock of, and 66s. Not a very good place to be. And considering I had a rate of return of less than 25% with last nights map grinding, I am now 100% certain that I will never beat RNG. Having a positive outlook is only possible for so long. Eventually the spirit breaks after repeated disappointments, and looks elsewhere for fulfillment. At least farming currency, though boring, shows me steady reward for my time rather than constant punishment. While I play poe I will continue to engage in activities that are fun, and mapping has been removed from that category for now. -Dragon P.S. Thanks for sharing that. I am sure it will probably help some others keep a positive attitude when RNG spits in their eye. DISCLAIMER! The views and expressed opinions of Dragon are solely those of a drunken redneck and are not necessarily those of a sane person. Any likeness of intelligence is strictly coincidental and should not be taken seriously. His posts should not be read... by anyone. Last edited by Dragon585#3483 on May 8, 2013, 5:03:31 PM
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" Why would you be positive forever about this? Short example. We both played WoW. We both raided. We both needed stuff from bosses, which were quite RNG. But you got to run that raid with 8-15 or so bosses each week, and even if your belt or whatever never dropped or some random guy DKPed or rolled you to it, you still got (useful) stuff if you performed and you still progressed, if you performed. Now this is the kind of RNG abuse I can easily take: "maybe next week, no biggie". But no, in PoE you have no control and no options. You just get denied, the reason? Game felt like it. It's OK once, twice, but this shit repeats to infinity in PoE, and to make things worse, the devs think that it's OK for you to feel maps are something OMG so rare and so special. But the sad reality is that maps are nothing but rehashed and randomised content. Worse than undead Onyxia or Nefarian, which at least got new skins and updated loot&mechanics. Worse than "It's merely a setback" Kael'thas that at least got some weird stone in his chest, a new skin and a whole new dungeon. Worse than Ragnaros which got an epic new raid and entire patch. You got my idea. The maps are nothing precious. Nothing rare. Nothing awe-inspiring. They are just a very lamely hidden currency sink. A no merit, completely failed try to fix the economy. They don't offer anything but a RNG way (which is the only one, I might add...) to get more XP or items, which are ALREADY RNG - and you get the "privilege" to invest your wealth in the system too, in the slim hope you will be able to progress further. I know you are trying to stay positive and everything about it, but you should consider instead being realistic. There's no need to paint the situation in brighter colours than it is. Sometimes, if you make mistakes, you get flak - especially if you persist even after being told you're messing it up. It's not like GGG tries to be positive if you die in the game for example, they just relegate your char in Default or take 15%, even if it was not your fault. So why do they deserve a different treatment from us? placeholder for creative sig Last edited by Undon3#5633 on May 8, 2013, 5:28:47 PM
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Spoiler
" Man, you nailed it with your description. Here is the thing. I am NOT happy with RNG being in endgame. I agree with your analysis of GGG's current endgame 100%. I am not trying to put a positive shine on a turd. What you quoted from my last post was my effort at being courteous for the guy taking the time to post an idea on my feedback thread that I ABSOLUTELY want to be taken seriously so that this crappy rng based endgame idea of chris's gets abandoned asap. I am beyond frustrated. I am at the point of quitting very soon, truth be told. Not to say I will never come back, but more like I have run out of fun things to do. But I refuse to give up on this thread. I am not going to rage again and post garbage that GGG won't read. If I keep this thread civil and well constructed maybe, just MAYBE they will see the message. The message ofc being RNG is NOT FUN on every single aspect of the game. Can't you understand that? Ofc I am pissed. But which thread do you think will be considered? One like this, or one that just spews insults about a game that people have been working hard on? You missed probably the most important part of my last post. " Take a second to read between the lines and understand my goal here. -Dragon DISCLAIMER! The views and expressed opinions of Dragon are solely those of a drunken redneck and are not necessarily those of a sane person. Any likeness of intelligence is strictly coincidental and should not be taken seriously. His posts should not be read... by anyone. Last edited by Dragon585#3483 on May 8, 2013, 5:48:43 PM
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Well, to be honest, being positive lasts only for so long if not being reinforced by recognition. When QQ topic together with positive topic together with constructive, idea-proposing topic get the same silent treatment, what can I say.
I basically came to the belief that many complaints in the forums are caused by huge misunderstandings that were either caused by or not corrected by GGG in time. So, what's this endgame thing? Does it really have a place in a F2P, ARPG game? I think GGG put it there so they keep players in PoE, and because they played MMOs too and maybe liked the concept. If these guys were not MMO players besides Diablo 2 etc., there would have never, ever been such a strong focus on an online economy. Creating a true endgame is kinda beyond GGG, if they take 6-9 months for an Act that you finish in day or two. So randomisation is the helper. Randomise content, randomise tiles, randomise mobs, randomise mods on mobs, on items, randomise drops, randomise EVERYTHING. Let things fix themselves. Create content, create RNG algorithms, let the dice roll. For me, such a thing can only go for so long before I start noticing the crap. The root issue here is: How do we extend our game without resources to properly extend it (i.e. more content, more story, more costly assets such as graphics&sound etc.) In the not so far future, I expect computers so smart&powerful that they will be able to PROPERLY RNG content in virtual worlds without us even noticing much. But not just yet. For now, it just doesn't work OK, in this day and age especially, when your image is constructed in direct comparison with other similar online-only games. Indie, F2P or not, you create it, and put it on the web, so yeah... expect "feedback". Hence, my constructive feedback is: - Take out the maps - completely. - Reset the ladders each 6 months, exactly as in D2, exactly as suggested numerous times by SL4Y3R. GGG, you put yourselves in a VERY difficult position with this "no more wipes" policy. - just copy further on how D2 worked, and make the game ARPG to the core. Dump the confusing MMO hybridisation. This way, you'll achieve the true niche audience. Nobody will QQ for no RNG endgame, there won't be any endgame, just like in any other ARPG. Drop rates would be relaxed, because the economy would last just 6 months. Nobody would care about the economy, a wipe will "solve" it. Anyway, Dragon, my apologies if I sounded rude. I hope you realise it was not my intention. placeholder for creative sig Last edited by Undon3#5633 on May 8, 2013, 6:53:17 PM
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" The best part is ladder resets do not constitute a 'wipe'. Just like in D2 you have the current league be the non-ladder league and start a new ladder. When that one is over there is a migration, not a wipe, moving all characters/items to the legacty/non-ladder league. This does not go against their 'no more wipes' statement. |
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Nah mate, I have seen enough of your posts to know you don't intend rudeness. I don't take offense at all. We are both on the same page, I just choose to voice it a little differently. I feel I don't have the experience or the right to tell a game developer that he is doing it wrong. But what I do have a right to do is tell him when I am no longer having fun, and why.
I have come to the realization that maps are working EXACTLY as GGG intended them to. In fact, you were there in my last thread when I found that out and went super rage mode. But I also figured that there is still a minuscule chance that feedback can change their minds. Even if it is a small chance in hell, it is a chance (yay more rng). I know there are a TON of things people dislike about this game based on what is all over the forums. But for me, if GGG fixed desync and made progression a gear/skill/build check instead of RNG, I will be here for a very very long time. All the other issues people have with the game haven't even crossed my mind during my entire experience playing this game. They seem small to me compared to this. I am really saddened that GGG has been so silent on these topics, and more than a little pissed that chris chooses reddit over his own games forums. If my outlook appears positive, it isn't. Even if GGG doesn't read the feedback forums or care what people are thinking/suggesting, I do. I still have a stake in the outcome of this game, and I am watching carefully for signs of hope. I was wishing this thread would give me that. From either GGG responding to some of the feedback, or from player suggestions and ideas. I think if I can draw enough people here to say to GGG that RNG endgame sucks, it might have an impact. I am probably just dreaming, but you have no idea how much free time I have lately :P so here I remain. Waiting for a sign, good or ill. -Dragon P.S. Thanks for adding more feedback to the thread. DISCLAIMER! The views and expressed opinions of Dragon are solely those of a drunken redneck and are not necessarily those of a sane person. Any likeness of intelligence is strictly coincidental and should not be taken seriously. His posts should not be read... by anyone. Last edited by Dragon585#3483 on May 8, 2013, 7:20:13 PM
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Huh, thinking more on the subject of being kept in the dark, I came to a strange understanding. Speaking for myself only ofc, the fact that GGG has been very silent on the subject of this thread has actually kept me here. Think about it for a minute. If GGG had just come out and said, "Thank you for the feedback, but we will be keeping endgame the way it is" I would have quit then and there and found something else to occupy my time.
Not knowing, is frustratingly effective at keeping me glued to the screen searching daily for signs of hope. Something to ponder I suppose. DISCLAIMER!
The views and expressed opinions of Dragon are solely those of a drunken redneck and are not necessarily those of a sane person. Any likeness of intelligence is strictly coincidental and should not be taken seriously. His posts should not be read... by anyone. |
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Oh, I'm 99% that GGG is monitoring feedback quite closely.
I just think that they are almost completely stuck, because of their niche promotion and statements. They have put themselves in the corner with no more wipes and "we be hardcore", with nobody even being able to define the damn word, it mean something else for almost each person. Now they will have to either go further this road and provoke even more bitterness (even the forums seem so quite by now, many would say it's natural, I hardly think a game that has but 4-5 months should start to feel this empty...), or they will have to go back ("reluctantly" :P) on their word and promises as it is the case with the loot systems. This is obviously hard for their egos and will seem deceitful to their core "customers". STUCK. " Yeah, but mostly on the forums instead of... you know... playing :P And for how long can it last? That's the issue. placeholder for creative sig Last edited by Undon3#5633 on May 8, 2013, 7:49:11 PM
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